View Full Version : Outcast of Redwall

Sandstripe the Wild
March 12th, 2004, 09:38 PM
The Outcast of Redwall was sadly misleading, I mean think about it the title insinuates that the story revolves around Veil but he didn't even come into the story till about halfway through. The book was more about Sunflash and Skarlath then Veil (not that there's anything wrong with Sunflash mind you). Brian Jacques should have given the story a different title at the very least or introduced Sunflash as a main character in another book and made it that he was enslaved by another vermin. That way Veil could have been the main character, he probabily would have made some interesting allies (vermin and woodlander alike). What do you guys think.

March 12th, 2004, 10:39 PM
If you've read Mossflower, Sunflash comes in at the end. I think it was supposed to be somewhat of a continuation of that.

Sandstripe the Wild
March 12th, 2004, 11:01 PM
I know that he's introduced at the end of Mossflower but its not really the same. And the Outcast of Redwall wasn't really a continuation since it appears to have taken place sometime during Mossflower and went straight through legend of Luke.

Another thing, at the ending of Mossflower we see Gonff's son Gonff (Gonfflet) has grown up and now has a son of his own which would be Gonff's grandson yet in the Outcast of Redwall they say that Bryony is Gonff's granddaughter, that shouldn't be unless Gonfflet had another child but that is doubtful seeing that they would have at least mentioned Gonff's grandson living in St. Ninans church since Gonff's family lived there for six generations as it was explained in Mariel of Redwall. By all rights Bryony should be Gonff's great-granddaughter.

Moving ahead a few generations to the time of Mariel of Redwall, Dandin refers to Gonff as his ancestor but for some strange reason many people seem to think that Dandin was Bryony's grandson or son. This couldn't be because in order for someone to be considered an ancestor he or she would have had to have lived many, many generations ago. Like the Reguba's in Marlfox, the actual Reguba lived probabily close to the time of Martin the Warrior or maybe even before, thats a big time gap between him and the Marlfox time frame.

Goddess of Darkness
March 12th, 2004, 11:21 PM
what doesn't really make too much sense is that at the end of Mossflower, Sunflash shows up at Salamandasrton, which happens somewhere in the middle of Outcast of Redwall. here's the weird part:Redwall wasn't built untill Legend of Luke, but at the same time as the end of Mossflower, Redwall is already there, and Gonff is already long dead. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!!! What the ****?!
I'm assuming that the end of Mossflower is looking into the future, then...hmm...*trails of and starts crazed ranting*

March 13th, 2004, 03:56 PM
those are some fantastic observations i never noticed any of that :) Found some timeline mistakes in the series well done.

Cheek Stag Otter
March 14th, 2004, 05:53 AM
I will bring this up again when we actually review the book but I always felt that "The Bellmaker" had the most misleading title. Joseph never really does anything, except for go along with the ride. I know there's that four line poem at the beggining of the book saying the story is the bellmakers because Joseph had the dream but I always felt Brian wrote that after the story was finished to link it with the title. I think Brian should have named that book "Southsward".

I get what your saying about "Outcast" but the titl never really bothered me all that much. The timeline problem's are slightly annoying though, but you've got the remember that Brian hadn't written "Legend Of Luke" at this point.

March 14th, 2004, 02:40 PM
The start and end of "Mossflower" are like bookends to the tale and are told far in the future; it adds to the sense that this is an old tale. It also enhances the sense of Bella's age.
As I have recently said in another thread, Veil is in a way the centre of the story, even though he is not the central character. Not only does he hold the plot together but the conflict of actions and identity of vermin and goodbeast, vengance and pity, inclusion and solitude is thematically the heart of the story.
In addition, if one views the title from a slightly oblique angle and takes "outcast" not as someone who has been rejected but someone who is lost from their home and someone who is or was an outsider in the society where they grew up then "outcast" applies to both Veil and Sunflash. But I think that's stretching it.

Sandstripe the Wild
March 14th, 2004, 05:23 PM
Keyla you could be right but if you read the summary of the story (back of the paperback or inside of the hardback or the website page) the story still implies that Veil was going to be the main character.

As for the "Bellmaker" the title was kind of misleading since the story appears to revolve more around Rufe Brush and Finnbar Galedeep then Joseph.

As for the abbey in Legend of Luke, if you remember Bella said that Gonfflet was born the day the abbeygates were open. Meaning that he was born when the abbey's most basic form was completed, in Legend of Luke the abbeydwellers were busy constructing the belltower which doesn't get used until Mariel Of Redwall.

Also Bella mentions that Sunflash disappeared sometime in the begining of the war between Mossflower and Verduaga Greeneyes after her mate died. He of course was captured by a younger Swartt Sixclaws and held prisoner for the duration of Mossflower (Most-likely till the beginning of Legend of Luke) whereas he met Skarlath and began terrorizing Swartt and his makeshift hoard for several for several years until he decided to crash with the family of hedgehogs and moles (I forget their names). By the time he made it to Salamandastron everyone from Mossflower except Bella had passed away.

This leads to another question, how could Swartt live that long, if you think about it he would have died long before he had Veil. Badgers appearantly can live for centuries (in a manner of speaking) in the world of Redwall, Bella and Cregga Roseeyes were living proof. But I was quite unaware that any vermin save wildcats could keep an even pace with badgers. Sunflash would have been young and in his prime while Swartt would have made Methushla look young.

Another thing, how come Cregga lived through three books (Long Patrol, Marlfox, and Taggerung), I could understand her living until Marlfox because that was one or two generations later and there were still other characters from previous books running around like Friar Butty, Sloey, and that one mole, but then she lived about several more Generations until she was killed in Taggerung (if it wasn't for Vallug she probably would have outlasted Mhera). Point being, she lived too long. The only other Badger that was in three books was Bella and she didn't even live as long as Cregga. Russano was there too but he had mostly camieo appearances in the books that he was in except for the Long Patrol but he didn't really do much anyway since he was an infant, he's the only other character that I have seen live that many generations. He's also one of the most mentioned characters. Back on topic though I Cregga could live that long then Auma should have been around long after the Pearls of Lutra, she was Mattimeo's age when she was introduced so she still should have been relatively young up until Marlfox.

Well, I'll rant more later.

March 14th, 2004, 06:45 PM
I figured BJ just liked the character. I thought she was used too much. Her in all 3 of those books was pushing it a little too far imo. For Cregga that is.

March 15th, 2004, 01:03 PM
I don't think he pushed Cregga too far. While she is not the central character in any of the three books she featured in, she stands alongside Martin in my mind as being one of the best developed in the series. The trick is that she was not shown as having one character arc, but rather different bits of development throughout her life, just as Martin did, so that instead of trying to squeeze every last drop out of a single idea, we see her as she moves through life. She gave for the theme of "leadership" what Martin did for "heroism", if you will.
She also gave a good sense of continuity that I think worked well for the three books she featured in.