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Cinnabarr Rivershell
June 2nd, 2004, 11:54 PM
NOTE FROM MARTIN THE WARRIOR-- The following posts were the result of an exchange between Kediassa and Lord TBT in a thread entitled "Redwall plotlines" in The Bookshelf. Since they had no relevance to the subject of the thread or even the forum, they were split into a new thread here. This thread was not begun by Cinnabarr Rivershell.

I hate feminists. They always wine and complain that the world is against women. Well I'm sick of all that malarky. Why don't you, and I won't say any names Kediassa, go out and do something about this "GREAT ISSUE", which seems to concern you, instead of sitting hear and complaining about it. GEEZ!

Now don't get me wrong here. I'm not against women or thier rights and all that, but I'm just sick of all of this "men are dominating the world, while pushing women down from gaining anything" stuff. Now my opinion may be baised because I am a male, but I will say that I did know a feminist who happened to be a teacher and she was extreamely sexist towards the boys in my class, while she treated the girls like princesses. SO, did I sit and complain about it. No. I went up to the teacher and I told her of her missguided ways. Did it help my predicament. No, but at least I didn't sit and complain.

LordTBT
June 3rd, 2004, 12:34 AM
There is a difference between "feminism" and "womanism".

"Feminism" is blaming men and hating them.

"Womanism" is embracing your values as a woman and being indepedent.


I think the 'proper' choice is obvious.

While we're on the topics of things I hate (next to feminists), also on that list are: liberals, environmentalist wackos, bad drivers, having to turn off cruise control when I'm on the freeway, taxes, and cats.

Cheesethief
June 3rd, 2004, 04:30 AM
Also, Cheesetheif, what do you mean? Mara, me? What?
first of all, its cheesethIEf. second, your idea for a plot seems to be radically like that featuring mara in salamandastron.


I hate feminists. They always wine and complain that the world is against women. Well I'm sick of all that malarky. Why don't you, and I won't say any names Kediassa, go out and do something about this "GREAT ISSUE", which seems to concern you, instead of sitting hear and complaining about it. GEEZ!
quite right. and its WHINE not "wine".;) but leave out ked.




I may just be taking that quote differently than what he meant, but is he pretty much saying there will never be a good vermin or bad woodlander? Yeah... okay, but what about Blaggut, Romsca, and possibly even Veil? And for the generaly good woodland species, what about Druwp and...uhh... he's the only example I can think of, but I'm sure you get my point. It just irritates me though, I think species like ferrets and foxes rock, but their always percieved as the bad guys it seems.
thats cos, as brian says, theyare always baddies in european lore. and weve had this discussion before on another topic, maybe you werent there.


While we're on the topics of things I hate (next to feminists), also on that list are: liberals, environmentalist wackos, bad drivers, having to turn off cruise control when I'm on the freeway, taxes, and cats.
everything except cats.


Something that I like about the heroines in the Redwall series is that there's never really a fuss raised about their gender. I can't remember a time when a gaggle of stereotypical non-believing males mocked a female's abilities, only to be proven wrong by the heroine proving that she can fight with the best of them" I'd find something like that rather demeaning, and I often do when it's used in other pieces of fiction. Instead, strong female characters are introducted naturally in the series, without any forcing of "girl power" into the books.
exactly.:)

but one thing is that in history, men were the dominant heroes. i can think of one woman as a warrior. joan of arc.

Felldoh
June 3rd, 2004, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by Cheesethief
thats cos, as brian says, theyare always baddies in european lore. and weve had this discussion before on another topic, maybe you werent there.

Yeah, I don't think I was there. Still though, why did he make some baddies into good and the "gray" area, and some goodies bad?

Kediassa
June 3rd, 2004, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Cinnabarr Rivershell
I hate feminists. They always wine and complain that the world is against women. Well I'm sick of all that malarky. Why don't you, and I won't say any names Kediassa, go out and do something about this "GREAT ISSUE", which seems to concern you, instead of sitting hear and complaining about it. GEEZ!


1. Women are disbelieved to become president.
2. History is filled with men, and its hard to find a women that fits into an ancient world history book.
3. I'm not going to go out and complain, I'm not the person to debate.
4. I would love to see another heroine, because there is hardly any in the real world.
5. And you must understand that I am not the person to mess with, because I can be stubborn at some points.
6. Why is everyone being rude to me? I just gave out a plot idea, and everyone just comes beating down on me about requirements and blah blah blah. Does it really matter?

Cheesethief
June 3rd, 2004, 10:45 AM
i reckon brian was reflecting real life and showing that anyone can do good things if they try, theres your explanation fell.
apologies all round to kediassa.

Cinnabarr Rivershell
June 3rd, 2004, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Kediassa

2. History is filled with men, and its hard to find a women that fits into an ancient world history book.

Didn't Cheesethief just mention Joan of Arc?

Originally posted by Kediassa

5. And you must understand that I am not the person to mess with

OooooOOooo!! I'm soooo scared! Someone help me! Please!!! Help ME!!!!:lol:

Felldoh
June 3rd, 2004, 02:16 PM
Yes, I know that, but I'm still trying to point out that he said he'd never have good vermin or bad woodlanders. It's not really something to debate I guess, but I'm just one to often point out when someone famous contradicts themselves. :D

Kediassa
June 3rd, 2004, 02:22 PM
Originally posted by Cinnabarr Rivershell

OooooOOooo!! I'm soooo scared! Someone help me! Please!!! Help ME!!!!:lol:


:lol: Whatever, Cinn.

And I believe some of you guys owe me apologies; I have never met a bunch of people like yourselves, so I guess I owe some apologies too.

LordTBT
June 3rd, 2004, 02:40 PM
History is filled with men, and its hard to find a women that fits into an ancient world history book.

Cleopatra, Mary (Magdelene and Jesus' mom)....theres many more but I'd have to rack my brain.

Cinnabarr Rivershell
June 3rd, 2004, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by LordTBT

Cleopatra, Mary (Magdelene and Jesus' mom)....theres many more but I'd have to rack my brain.

It just keeps on coming doesn't it,
Kediassa? HAHAHA:lol:

Kediassa
June 3rd, 2004, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Cinnabarr Rivershell

It just keeps on coming doesn't it,
Kediassa? HAHAHA

..Stoppit.


Originally posted by LordTBT


Cleopatra, Mary (Magdelene and Jesus' mom)....theres many more but I'd have to rack my brain.

Shut up.

Cheesethief
June 4th, 2004, 06:18 AM
Yes, I know that, but I'm still trying to point out that he said he'd never have good vermin or bad woodlanders. It's not really something to debate I guess, but I'm just one to often point out when someone famous contradicts themselves.
ME? famous?:o :o thanks!

how about all the goddesses, priestesses, etc.?

Goddess of Darkness
June 9th, 2004, 09:35 AM
I'd just like to point out that ON AVERAGE in the US women make 75 US cents for every US dollar that a man makes. As, unfortunately, I don't live in the UK ((*sniff*)), I don't know how it is for women there, but in my country they're treated like ????. They are considered merely toys for men. I am sorry to whoever it was that said they're teacher was unfair, it was wrong of that teacher. They were obviously not a real femenist, because what femenists fight for is EQUALITY.

Cheesethief
June 9th, 2004, 09:50 AM
well, 80 years ago a woman jumped in front of the kings horse as it was racing and died. nowadays women are treated fairly but reading the paper today there was another case of sexism.

Kediassa
June 10th, 2004, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by Goddess of Darkness
I'd just like to point out that ON AVERAGE in the US women make 75 US cents for every US dollar that a man makes. As, unfortunately, I don't live in the UK ((*sniff*)), I don't know how it is for women there, but in my country they're treated like ????. They are considered merely toys for men. I am sorry to whoever it was that said they're teacher was unfair, it was wrong of that teacher. They were obviously not a real femenist, because what femenists fight for is EQUALITY.

Thank you, that is what I was trying to point out.

LordTBT
June 10th, 2004, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by Goddess of Darkness
I'd just like to point out that ON AVERAGE in the US women make 75 US cents for every US dollar that a man makes. As, unfortunately, I don't live in the UK ((*sniff*)), I don't know how it is for women there, but in my country they're treated like ????. They are considered merely toys for men. I am sorry to whoever it was that said they're teacher was unfair, it was wrong of that teacher. They were obviously not a real femenist, because what femenists fight for is EQUALITY.


And I'd like proof, in the form of evidence please, because I was recently informed that women make more than men in most professional fields nowadays.

Goddess of Darkness
June 10th, 2004, 07:25 PM
You want proof?

http://www.aei.org/news/newsID.10067/news_detail.asp

Cinnabarr Rivershell
June 10th, 2004, 07:36 PM
Originally written by the website that Goddess of Darkness gave a link to

Last month in a Saturday radio address, President Clinton announced his Equal Pay Initiative, saying that "women earn about 75 cents for every dollar a man earns." He proposed spending $14 billion to increase funding for the Labor Department and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission to "end discrimination once and for all."

AH! President Clinton!!!! That was back in 1999!!!!

Originally posted by Lord TBT

And I'd like proof, in the form of evidence please, because I was recently informed that women make more than men in most professional fields nowadays.

He was recently informed that women make more than men in most professional fields nowadays. RECENTLY informed. That means he heard this lately,probably in the last couple of months. NOT in 1999!!!!! Don't you think that things might have changed since then? Please Goddess of Darkness if you have evidence, next time check how old the evidence is because that might make the evidence obsolete.

LordTBT
June 11th, 2004, 02:44 AM
yeah I'm sorry, 5 year old "evidence" doesnt cut it. The oldest I'll accept is 2003, max.

Goddess of Darkness
June 11th, 2004, 09:19 AM
I'd like to see YOUR evidence that women make more than men in most profesional fields. Because if you don't have any, I'd say even 5 year old evidence beats it. Also, it's not just income, as I said, women are almost always treated inferior(at least in the US), though not always on purpose. The way you're treating us right now is an example. You're treating us like our opinions don't matter, like we should give up without questioning your statements. You told me to give proof, yet so far you have failed to produce any, and you still act like I should think you're right. Though, I could be wrong...you could just be a jerk. Give me a bit of research time, and I'll find more recent proof.

Goddess of Darkness
June 11th, 2004, 09:31 AM
76 cents
For every $1 their male counterparts earn, that is the amount women earn who work full time, year-round. This ratio represents an all-time high, eclipsing the previous high of 74 cents for every $1, first recorded in 1996. <http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/2002/cb02-124.html>

Last Updated:
February 14 , 2003

U.S. Census Bureau

LordTBT
June 11th, 2004, 01:19 PM
Thats when that site was updated, not the statistics. The last census was taken in the year 2000, which means all stats are from then.


These income and poverty estimates, the first to use population estimates based on Census 2000 results

However, I did proper research, and found this site for you, which is only a few days old:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Business/US/wages_gap_040607-1.html

Heck heres another one
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/04_24/b3887065.htm

I refuse to believe anything on it though, because all stats come from the "Institute for Women's Policy Research" which sounds like a completely biased source to me. So I did a google for them, and found their website. It's all run by women. Gee, a women-run organization providing research that women earn less than men :rolleyes:

Goddess of Darkness
June 11th, 2004, 05:32 PM
You don't have to give me evidence of MY argument, I already know I'm right. I wonder why YOU would start an argument with only evidence of the OTHER PERSON'S CLAIM! :lol:

Though, I must thank you. What you have just said is more proof than anything anyone could find through research about men treating women inferior. What you have just said is that womens' opinions on this matter are WORTHLESS. And you have the nerve to assume that the WOMEN that made this site are biased?! :lol:

Remember, you have yet to give me any proof of YOUR argument. :D

Cinnabarr Rivershell
June 11th, 2004, 07:58 PM
Originally posted by Lord TBT

I refuse to believe anything on it though, because all stats come from the "Institute for Women's Policy Research" which sounds like a completely biased source to me. So I did a google for them, and found their website. It's all run by women. Gee, a women-run organization providing research that women earn less than men


Originally posted by Goddess of Darkness

What you have just said is that womens' opinions on this matter are WORTHLESS.

Goddess of Darkness if you read what TBT said earlier, which if you cannot find, I put for you conveniently at the top of this post, you will see that he never said that womens' opinions are worthless. First of all TBT never said that the articles on the websites, which he posted earlier, were opinions. I'm afraid that you are the only one to have called these articles, written by women, opinions. So, I guess if you think that these articles are opinions, then they must be opinions. So what I remember about opinions is that anyone has the right to dissagree with them, right? :D

Martin the Warrior
June 11th, 2004, 08:30 PM
This line of discussion has no business being in The Bookshelf in a thread devoted to "Redwall Plotlines", so consider it split and moved.

Cinnabarr Rivershell
June 11th, 2004, 08:33 PM
Ah. MtW would you so kindly mind as to take my name off of the thread starter PLEASE!!!!!

Martin the Warrior
June 11th, 2004, 08:53 PM
Only by splitting out the thread and excising that post entirely. I'll do that if you like-- or, if you'd prefer, I can simply edit in a note clarifying that all posts in this thread are a result of an exchange between Kediassa (I believe it was) and Lord TBT.

Baby Rollo
June 11th, 2004, 09:08 PM
In New Jersey, some sort of higher court house thing ruled that "Ladies Night" in bars was sexist because women only paid half-price. That policy was discriminatory against men and now there are no more Ladies Nights in bars all over NJ. Oh well, it doesn't concern me even thougH I think this is another example of when PC goes too far.

LadyBeelze
June 11th, 2004, 09:22 PM
Women these days aren't treated bad at all. I mean i just went on a river rafting trip and all the girls got to eat first and shower first. And it was the boys that suggested that. I think that feminism is wrong and people should just get rid of that idea. I'd like to have both men and women equal but that's just a thought.

Cinnabarr Rivershell
June 11th, 2004, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Martin the Warrior

Only by splitting out the thread and excising that post entirely. I'll do that if you like-- or, if you'd prefer, I can simply edit in a note clarifying that all posts in this thread are a result of an exchange between Kediassa (I believe it was) and Lord TBT.

Yeah. Go ahead and do whatever is easier for you. Thanks.

PiarasJ
June 12th, 2004, 01:34 AM
Interesting diversion from open warfare between the sexes: Did you know that in Japan it's considered impolite for a man to allow a woman to enter a room before him? (That's the opposite of the western way of thinking for all you bums who don't do either ;)). I think that's because there could be danger on the other side of the door and if the man held back and sent the woman in before him he'd be acting the wimp. Not sure though...

Why is it that there aren't many female world leaders now or in history? -Just an innocent question, don't be throwing handbags and cosmetics at me- Is it because in general you're simply not interested? Or is it due to male domination? And another ponderment: Why is it that cartoons often depict overbearing matrons shouting their husbands into submission as if it's funny? Why is it that daffy duck getting shot by elmer fudd is funny? Why doesn't he die??? :eek:

Keyla
June 12th, 2004, 02:35 AM
The main reason there haven't been many female leaders in world history comes down to several things. In terms of kings and queens there had to be no sons before a daughter could take the crown. Even though Edward VII was only nine at the time he became king instead of his two older sisters. In terms of those who have risen to power through economic savvyness, women in europe were not allowed to participate in econimic activities and were seen as being subserviant to their husbands. Once married most gave up their jobs to look after the house and their children. Their power was typically limited to domestic matters. Militarilly it hadn't been concidered right for women to fight for goodness knows how long. The romans were against it and though one may point to some celtic women going to war this tended to be limited to them fighting as political leaders who had come to power, often because their husband has died, such as Boedecia, and there were no women in the ranks. But even these female warriors aren't seen any more once europe became "civilised".

As I have said before there are exceptions, such as Joan of Arc and Elizabeth I but these are typically down to quite exceptional circumstances and the women in question often put on a male persona. Joan of Arc dressed in male clothing when meeting the King and Elizabeth told her soldiers that while she had a women's body her heart was that of a man like her father Henry VIII.

In recent times we have we have had some female world leaders. Most notable in Britain is the Iron Lady, Margaret Thatcher, and while I may not admire many of her policies and her memory is marred with issues such as the poll tax, it is quite remarkable that she was the longest serving Prime Minister of recent times. Oddly enough in Asia, where we often think of a more traditional set of gender roles, there are many female leaders. It seems the west is a little behind.

It does strike me as rather odd that there are so few women at the top positions. Maybe TBT's earlier comment that he wouldn't feel as safe with a women president in a time of war and other american's on the internet seem to be against the idea of women in the army. Perhaps these two things are linked. Of course, the fighting ability of the president would make no difference whatsoever in a time of conflict as the president does not take up arms, but I think, perhaps, it has something to do with having a figurehead. America comes across as being very patriotic in comparison to other western countries and maybe because of that the image the leader presents is of a greater importance. Perhaps countries such as France and the UK feel more secure with women leaders is because we have traditional figure from the past or at least from the imagination of the past that showed such leadership and often fighting prowess, Elizabeth I, Joan of Arc, Britania, etc.

LordTBT
June 12th, 2004, 02:56 AM
In New Jersey, some sort of higher court house thing ruled that "Ladies Night" in bars was sexist because women only paid half-price. That policy was discriminatory against men and now there are no more Ladies Nights in bars all over NJ. Oh well, it doesn't concern me even thougH I think this is another example of when PC goes too far.

I disagree. I've heard of this, and I'm in complete agreement with the case.. Because of "ladies nights" and "Ladies get in free until 11!" or "No cover for the ladies!", it makes me not want to go clubbing that much. I love clubs, but the fact that I have to pay $10-20 to get in, and women get in free really chaps my behind. It's not worth it. It is discriminatory against men.



You don't have to give me evidence of MY argument, I already know I'm right. I wonder why YOU would start an argument with only evidence of the OTHER PERSON'S CLAIM!

Though, I must thank you. What you have just said is more proof than anything anyone could find through research about men treating women inferior. What you have just said is that womens' opinions on this matter are WORTHLESS. And you have the nerve to assume that the WOMEN that made this site are biased?!

Remember, you have yet to give me any proof of YOUR argument.

Well for one, you were unable to provide evidence yourself. I had to do the research for you :rolleyes: And it was proven(don't know exact court case sorry but this was taught in my junior high school class by my female teacher) that women are the physically weaker sex. Hate to burst your bubble.

Second, if hypothetically I were to do a study on which gender was more attractive, and all my researchers were men(provided they were heterosexual men), then answer would obviously be women. The fact that all the researchers and the organization is run and founded by one gender makes it a large bias, and the study null.

Glenner
June 12th, 2004, 02:02 PM
There have been a lack of women leaders in this world simply because women have not been taught how to be leaders. We have been taught how to be followers of men, and only until recently has that been reversed. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 30 years or so, there will be a woman president.

LordTBT
June 12th, 2004, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by Glenner
There have been a lack of women leaders in this world simply because women have not been taught how to be leaders. We have been taught how to be followers of men, and only until recently has that been reversed. I wouldn't be surprised if in the next 30 years or so, there will be a woman president.

Or that possibly theyre poor leaders? I've seen millions of leadership classes all over the place. It cracks me up that we have classes for people to learn leadership. I think leadership is a natural thing, not something that can be learned.

Furrtil
June 12th, 2004, 03:15 PM
Interesting topic.

I think men and women should be equal, and I know that society is doing great things to get there. I also think that it will never happen fully unless we have a totally androgynous society, because men and women are physically and mentally different in some aspects. Nothing is going to change the fact that women have babies and men don't, or that men generally have more muscle to them.

There are women in politics. Condoleezza Rice is a good example. The previous governor of my state served for three terms and was female. Also, I believe the current president of India is female. And you're right, politics is mostly dominated by men. But you must keep in mind that this is changing.

Of course, the situation is still not perfect. A men-only gym would recieve public outcry about the male chauvinistic pigs, yet there are women-only gyms where I live and no one caresthat men aren't allowed. LordTBT's situation is another good example in which men are treated unfairly. Although the profession initially originated with a male majority, today teaching is done mostly by women, and teachers receive some of the lowest pay around. At my school, the girl's dresscode is always enforced: no underwear showing, no low tops, no spaghetti straps, shorts and skirts longer than 15 inches, etc. But boys can walk around with the waist of their jeans near their knees and no one cares.

The point is, total equality is a long way off, but we are getting there. We must also avoid at all costs of the stereotype switching; when we think that men are inferior rather than equal. The same thing has happened in the effort towards equality between caucasians and african americans. We have gone from "(the n-word)" to "white trash", which are both horrible.


Blah. What a wicked long response. I'm sorry if it wasn't clear or appeared to contradict itself; this issue is very complicated and I believe in some things on both sides of the issue.

Goddess of Darkness
June 12th, 2004, 03:15 PM
Well for one, you were unable to provide evidence yourself. I had to do the research for you :rolleyes: And it was proven(don't know exact court case sorry but this was taught in my junior high school class by my female teacher) that women are the physically weaker sex. Hate to burst your bubble.


YOUR ARGUMENT STILL HAS NO EVIDENCE TO BACK IT. WE'VE FOUND AT LEAST 4 SITES TELLING YOU I'M RIGHT, NONE SAYING ANYTHING EVEN CLOSE TO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. I REFUSE TO CONTINUE THIS ARGUMENT UNTILL YOU COME UP WITH PROOF OF YOUR CASE. GOOD LUCK. :lol:

I agree that "Ladies' Night" is stupid, but you don't understand. The point of it is to get women into the bar or club, to attract more men into the bar or club with hopes of "picking up" women. Another example of how women are treated like objects.

By the way, to whoever it was that said they think femenism is stupid and we should all be equal, you are a femenist. Femenists fight for equality.

Furrtil
June 12th, 2004, 03:24 PM
Taken from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary:



Main Entry: fem·i·nism
Pronunciation: 'fe-m&-"ni-z&m
Function: noun
1 : the theory of the political, economic, and social equality of the sexes
2 : organized activity on behalf of women's rights and interests


It appears we were all wrong; feminism includes both equality of the sexes and promotion of women's rights.

LordTBT
June 12th, 2004, 03:25 PM
By the way, to whoever it was that said they think femenism is stupid and we should all be equal, you are a femenist. Femenists fight for equality.

No. Feminists hate men. Womanists are for equality.


But boys can walk around with the waist of their jeans near their knees and no one cares.

Yeah but I bet guys aren't allowed to grow facial hair are they?


WE'VE FOUND AT LEAST 4 SITES TELLING YOU I'M RIGHT, NONE SAYING ANYTHING EVEN CLOSE TO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING. I REFUSE TO CONTINUE THIS ARGUMENT UNTILL YOU COME UP WITH PROOF OF YOUR CASE. GOOD LUCK.

I agree that "Ladies' Night" is stupid, but you don't understand. The point of it is to get women into the bar or club, to attract more men into the bar or club with hopes of "picking up" women. Another example of how women are treated like objects.

We? You mean me. And as I said before, none of them count because the studies are null and biased.

The purpose of "ladies night" or free cover for ladies every night(which I've seen) is just to get hot chicks in the club. If they want more men in the club, they'd have free cover for guys too. If that's women being treated like objects, why do they voluntarily go to the clubs? Its not like theyre being forced.
I've been restricted from entering a club because I was male. Explain that one.

Furrtil
June 12th, 2004, 03:28 PM
I couldn't find "womanist" in the merriam-webster dictionary.

Actually, TBT, guys are allowed to grow facial hair. Why wouldn't they? I don't quite understand There are beards, mustaches at my school.

LordTBT
June 12th, 2004, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Furrtil
I couldn't find "womanist" in the merriam-webster dictionary.

Actually, TBT, guys are allowed to grow facial hair. Why wouldn't they? I don't quite understand There are beards, mustaches at my school.

dictionary.com

well from your description, you go to a private school right?

All private schools I've heard of have facial hair restrictions on guys. No goatees, beards, mustaches, etc.

Goddess of Darkness
June 12th, 2004, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by Furrtil
It appears we were all wrong; feminism includes both equality of the sexes and promotion of women's rights.

Equality, therefor fighting for womens' rights.

Mackinsie
June 12th, 2004, 03:45 PM
Equality doesn't always equal women's rights, however. There are many different forms of equality (racial, political, religious...).

I think the bar thing is just a little bit ridiculous. I wouldn't be offended if they had a guy's night. But, then again, I don't drink, so Ladies' Night has no affect on me.

Furrtil
June 12th, 2004, 03:45 PM
well from your description, you go to a private school right?

All private schools I've heard of have facial hair restrictions on guys. No goatees, beards, mustaches, etc.

TBT, I said that guys ARE allowed to have facial hair and that many DO have facial hair. And I go to a public school, just for the record.

Goddess of Darkness
June 12th, 2004, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by LordTBT
No. Feminists hate men. Womanists are for equality.

If you are going to make up your own definitions, kindly give us an English-TBTish dictionary.


We? You mean me. And as I said before, none of them count because the studies are null and biased.

Accually, I found two sites, one from the U.S. Census, the other a quote from our last president.

YOU HAVE YET TO GIVE ME EVIDENCE OF YOUR CASE.

(((By the way, this is my 42nd post! The answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything...and yes, I know this is completely irrelivant (sp?))))

Cinnabarr Rivershell
June 12th, 2004, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by Goddess of Darkness

Accually, I found two sites, one from the U.S. Census, the other a quote from our last president.

Ah. Do you have a short memory? You probably do, so in that case I will refresh your memory so you won't feel left in the dark goddess of darkness. HAHAA! Get it? Left in the dark, goddess of darkness:lol: Whatever. Anyways to jog your memory, both of those site/evidence are irrelevant because they are too old. You do remember that President Clinton was president back in 1999, right?

So, Goddess of Darkness YOU HAVE YET TO GIVE ME EVIDENCE OF YOUR CASE.

Senav
June 12th, 2004, 06:10 PM
My, this is confusing.
On the subject of dress codes, our school has one. Of course, all the girls who wear skimpy things are irked with it. No skirts too short, spaghetti straps, all that. We also have a rule about no coats in class. It doesn't bother the guys, but the girls want to wear coats in class to cover up their shirts, which may be too short. Now, there IS a simple solution to this...buy shirts that cover more. That would be too easy, of course.
Me? I just think men and women should be equal. Women are bad in areas that men are good, and men are bad in areas where women excel. I would say that both sexes make good leaders. And a woman doesn't have to pick up her weapons and prove she's as tough as the boys, brains go a looong way. In politics you can make a rise to power without building a single muscle. I think the whole problem comes from the idea that the woman should be subservient to the man. What culture did that come from? Darned if I know.
Feminist nazis get on my nerves too. Yes, girls are as good as boys. Just stop telling us to not-shave our legs to take a stand against stereotypes. I'll shave my legs if I freakin' want to.


Um, I got that comment on leg-shaving from a quiz that would determine whether I'm a "liberated woman". As it turns out, only slightly liberated. Ah, making fun of my own gender is SO much fun!

Furrtil
June 12th, 2004, 06:51 PM
Dress codes bother me, because I have to wear pants in the summer. Because shorts must be longer than fifteen inches, and since I'm so darned short, fifteen inches is practically to my knees!

Ack.

My, are we going offtopic or what?

Glenner
June 12th, 2004, 07:39 PM
Did it ever occur to you, Lordtbt, that maybe natural leadership qualities in women are surpressed?
Some people do have leadership qualities naturally yes. But I'll stand by what I said and say it's mostly learned. You don't seem to understand that from an early age boys are taught to take charge if situations.

This topic is interesting but we must be careful no to let our own stereotypes or what we want to believe cloud our vision.

Goddess of Darkness
June 12th, 2004, 08:53 PM
*decides to be random* On the topic of dress codes, my best friend was telling me about the dress code at her elemetery school. It was seriously SCREWED UP. No ripped clothing, like knees ripped on pants, because it was considered "gang-related". It was also considered "gang-related" to wear all one colour, to wear bandanas, or to wear sunglasses inside. Tanktops had to have straps at least as wide as four fingers. And here's the worst one: kids were allowed to wear clothes and jewelry with crosses, but NOTHING ELSE. My friend got in serious trouble for wearing a pentacle neclace. Fortunately, they got so many complaints and threats to sue, that they got rid of this rule after only two weeks! YAY! What gives them the idea that they can control students like that, though?!

Bragoon
June 12th, 2004, 09:18 PM
I feel that TBT is just saying that he feels that women are treated just as fairly as men, which i quite agree with. IN the US, men ussualy treat women fairly. The reason that women only make 75 cents to dollar that men make is probably that men are ussually the ones who go through college and get the high-tech jobs. The wife is most of the time not the money maker, the husband is mostly. It's not fair for you to get all strung up at TBT; he is presenting valid reasons why he believes women are treated fairly. From my point of view, women are treated just as well as men. In my family the women always get served first. This might not be your case but if you look at the way women are treated by men, i think it is valid to say that women are treated as well as men are.

Slagar the Cruel
June 12th, 2004, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Goddess of Darkness
*decides to be random* On the topic of dress codes, my best friend was telling me about the dress code at her elemetery school. It was seriously SCREWED UP. No ripped clothing, like knees ripped on pants, because it was considered "gang-related". It was also considered "gang-related" to wear all one colour, to wear bandanas, or to wear sunglasses inside. Tanktops had to have straps at least as wide as four fingers. And here's the worst one: kids were allowed to wear clothes and jewelry with crosses, but NOTHING ELSE. My friend got in serious trouble for wearing a pentacle neclace. Fortunately, they got so many complaints and threats to sue, that they got rid of this rule after only two weeks! YAY!
I bet the students there don't have to wear ties and belts every day of the year, though, do they? And they don't have rigid guidelines to follow based on hair length/facial hair, hmm? Until then, cry me a river. ;)


Originally posted by Goddess of Darkness
What gives them the idea that they can control students like that, though?!
Well, they ARE providing a service to the students, so the students are obligated to follow the rules and regulations the school deems fit.

Goddess of Darkness
June 12th, 2004, 11:19 PM
Originally posted by Slagar the Cruel
I bet the students there don't have to wear ties and belts every day of the year, though, do they? And they don't have rigid guidelines to follow based on hair length/facial hair, hmm? Until then, cry me a river. ;)

I said randomly! To some people this is no big deal, I'm just sayin' I personally think it's a bit ridiculous, most of it anyway. The cross thing I am about to address.


Well, they ARE providing a service to the students, so the students are obligated to follow the rules and regulations the school deems fit.

So, telling students that only this one religion is okay is no big deal?! My friend got in trouble because she wasn't a Christian! I am NOT saying ANYTHING bad about Christains, now, so do NOT start yellin' at me! But do you call that fair?! She didn't say anything offensive or anything!

Bragoon
June 13th, 2004, 12:30 AM
I don't think it's right to enforce someone's belief on others. So, yeah i pity your friend for getting in trouble that she's not a christian. ON the other hand, this sounds like a christian school; most christian schools cost a great deal more than a public school. If your friend doesn't want to get in trouble for not being a christian or wearing a necklace without a cross, why is she in some kind of Private School?

Goddess of Darkness
June 13th, 2004, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by Bragoon
I don't think it's right to enforce someone's belief on others. So, yeah i pity your friend for getting in trouble that she's not a christian. ON the other hand, this sounds like a christian school; most christian schools cost a great deal more than a public school. If your friend doesn't want to get in trouble for not being a christian or wearing a necklace without a cross, why is she in some kind of Private School?

It was a public school. I know several people that went there.

LordTBT
June 13th, 2004, 02:39 AM
I think the bar thing is just a little bit ridiculous. I wouldn't be offended if they had a guy's night. But, then again, I don't drink, so Ladies' Night has no affect on me.

Not drinking doesnt mean you cant go to bars or clubs Mackzerz.


TBT, I said that guys ARE allowed to have facial hair and that many DO have facial hair. And I go to a public school, just for the record.

Your post confused me, and led me to believe you attended a private school.


Some people do have leadership qualities naturally yes. But I'll stand by what I said and say it's mostly learned. You don't seem to understand that from an early age boys are taught to take charge if situations.

So that would make the issue a parenting problem, and parenting is done by men and women, so you would be suggesting that women arent doing their part in teaching girls to be leaders? I thought there was a program that did that....Girl Scouts maybe? And this isnt even true in male cases....I see weak men all the time.


It was also considered "gang-related" to wear all one colour, to wear bandanas, or to wear sunglasses inside.

You need to tell your school to get out of 1996.


So, telling students that only this one religion is okay is no big deal?! My friend got in trouble because she wasn't a Christian! I am NOT saying ANYTHING bad about Christains, now, so do NOT start yellin' at me! But do you call that fair?! She didn't say anything offensive or anything!

If youre going to a private school, you are most likely Christian(more than likely roman catholic) or Jewish. Therefore, if you disagree with your religion (Christianity or Judaism) you need to inform your parents, and tell them you no longer wish to attend a school that preaches it. Thats ridiculous. Its completely fair. "Private schools" are religion based. If you disagree with that religion, you should not be attending that school. Being as your parents pay for it, you should be telling them.

Baby Rollo
June 13th, 2004, 09:50 AM
So, telling students that only this one religion is okay is no big deal?! My friend got in trouble because she wasn't a Christian! I am NOT saying ANYTHING bad about Christains, now, so do NOT start yellin' at me! But do you call that fair?! She didn't say anything offensive or anything!

So, does she go to the Midwest?

And TBT, she said that it was a public school.

Mackinsie
June 13th, 2004, 09:50 AM
Goddess of Darkness:
My friend got in serious trouble for wearing a pentacle neclace.

As the pentacle is normally associated with witchcraft and the occult, I'm not surprised. She had to know the kind of reaction her necklace would elicit and perhaps that's why she wore it to school.



Lord TBT:
Not drinking doesnt mean you cant go to bars or clubs Mackzerz.

But... why would I want to? ;)

Baby Rollo
June 13th, 2004, 10:13 AM
As the pentacle is normally associated with witchcraft and the occult, I'm not surprised. She had to know the kind of reaction her necklace would elicit and perhaps that's why she wore it to school.

And Pentacles are associated with satanists who are associated with people that caused troubled. It's like wearing a swastika necklace--it's just not a very positive image.

LordTBT
June 13th, 2004, 12:49 PM
It's like wearing a swastika necklace--it's just not a very positive image.

Thats a perfect analogy. In fact I would personally aid in the beatdown of someone wearing a swastika. :D

In our huge downtown area, it is not uncommon for annoying people to be handing out literature about "being saved" and "finding Jesus" and whatnot. Its ridiculous. Now as I've said before, I'm Roman Catholic and do not foresee that changing, but some friends and I thought it would be totally hilarious to dress up all professional and in suits and go downtown and hand out literature on Satanism and ask people if Satan was in their life, just for kicks.


But... why would I want to?

Most people go to clubs to dance! don't you like to shake your moneymaker Mackensie?

Baby Rollo
June 13th, 2004, 04:01 PM
Thats a perfect analogy. In fact I would personally aid in the beatdown of someone wearing a swastika

The swastika was actually a good luck symbol for many cultures including the Chinese, Native Americans, and Christians. If I recall correctly, it wasn't tilted and in some cultures represented as the 4 L's: Life, Love, and 2 other ones. Then Hitler took it, the Ave salute, and a bunch of other stuff and made it evil. Of course, the swastika today is a symbol associated with the Nazee party and along with the Ave became infamous. And that's the history lesson of the day.

Keyla
June 13th, 2004, 04:11 PM
Oddly enough, the Hindu symbol for good luck is a mirror image of the Nazi symbol. It has been said this is why they lost the 2nd World War.
What is quite interesting is that the Nazi party ended up with a symbol that bears so much in common with this Hindu one; I cannot imagine them deliberately wanting to associate with a culture they would see as inferior. Perhaps they were not aware enough of cultures such as the Indian one to realise this, though this seems rather odd as India was under British rule for quite some time and the Nazi party were somewhat interested in some parts of British culture.

As with the pentogram, I can imagine some people being offended by it but if it is an expression of religious identity then I don't think it right to stop someone wearing; that strikes me as going down a route of oppression that Christians and other faiths suffer under around the world. It is obviously not on the same scale but some would call it the thin end of the wedge. However, if they are simply wearing it to aggrivate people then asking them not to strikes me as reasonable.

Mackinsie
June 13th, 2004, 04:38 PM
The pentacle is not representative of any acknowledged religion or faith. It has symbolism to some people, but is not a form of religious expression. I assume that the school told her not to wear that necklace to class again. That wouldn't be a huge impact on the rest of her life. She would be perfectly free to wear it on her own time (after school, weekends, etc.).

PiarasJ
June 13th, 2004, 08:37 PM
I love clubs, but the fact that I have to pay $10-20 to get in, and women get in free really chaps my behind. It's not worth it. It is discriminatory against men. I'm really not bothered by clubs letting women in free. If it's an incentive for a girl to go out with you then why complain? ;) I can think of better ways to spend my time than complaining because my girlfriend gets in free. Especially seeing as I don't go clubbing anyway. ;)

Goddess of Darkness
June 13th, 2004, 10:52 PM
The pentacle is a Wiccan symbol, not a satanist symbol. The PENTAGRAM is a satanist symbol, which is an upsidedown pentacle. And the main rule of Wicca is "If it harms none, do as you will" as well as the rule of three, which states anything you do, magickal or not, comes back to you times three, good or evil, therefor Wicca VERY strongly opposes causing any physical or emotional pain to others or yourself. She was wearing it because she considered it good luck and it was pretty. She got detention.

Mackinsie
June 13th, 2004, 11:52 PM
Regardless of whatever meaning she attached to the symbol, it is largely associated with the occult and is viewed by many to represent that. Since religion and faith (btw, the pentacle does not represent any faith) are such lightning rods, I doubt that she was unaware of her school's dress code standards.

A pentagram and a pentacle are the same thing. The only difference is that those associated with Wicca are upright while those associated with the devil are inverted. When most people see that symbol, they don't really focus on which way it's pointing.



pen·ta·cle

A five-pointed star, often held to have magical or mystical significance, formed by five straight lines connecting the vertices of a pentagon and enclosing another pentagon in the completed figure. Also called pentagram.

Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.



pen•ta•cle
Pronunciation: (pen'tu-kul), [key]
—n.
1. pentagram.
2. a similar figure, as a hexagram.

Source: Infoplease.com



Main Entry: pen·ta·cle
Pronunciation: 'pen-ti-k&l
Function: noun
Etymology: (assumed) Medieval Latin pentaculum, probably from Greek pente
Date: 1594
: PENTAGRAM

Source: Merriam-Webster


As you can see, several dictionaries agree that a pentacle and a pentagram are the same thing.

Goddess of Darkness
June 14th, 2004, 09:11 AM
They are the same shape, but they mean completely different things. Hers is pointing up, therefor it is a Wiccan symbol. Looking at it, it is obvious it is nothing satanic and that it is Wiccan, because it has celtic knotwork and a cresent moon (sign of the maiden ((The Triple Goddess: Maiden, Mother, and Crone))).

Mackinsie
June 14th, 2004, 10:27 AM
What's obvious to you isn't that obvious to others. The average person isn't going to know whether the crescent moon represents the triple goddess or the prince of darkness.

Blurtail
June 14th, 2004, 10:28 AM
yea well it makes perfect sense to me.

Mackinsie
June 14th, 2004, 10:43 AM
What does?

Blurtail
June 14th, 2004, 10:52 AM
the trinity knot, but then again, I'm a druid soo..

Mackinsie
June 14th, 2004, 11:12 AM
The trinity knot is closely associated with Christianity today, as it is believed to represent the Blessed Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. While it is Celtic in origin, it has been adapted through the ages to become (almost exclusively) a Christian symbol.

Jandura
June 14th, 2004, 11:56 AM
Anyway, getting back on topic. About the dress code stuff, the reason (Im not talking about the ripped clothing) for this is that when the girls wear stuff like that, the guys end up paying more attention to them then the teacher, and when a teacher notices this, you get the rules. so in fact, the girls are causing these rules to be put in place.

And even though im a guy, I still think that women should be equal, but I see the feminist movement taking it too far. even if a dictionary says that the feminist movement is about equality, a person has the ability to take one step further. In respect Kediassa, there are many women in anciet history, but they arent recorded into history, except for women like Mary, who gave us the greatest gift of all (yes, that means im a Christian).

Senav
June 14th, 2004, 03:52 PM
Now we're talking about religion? *grabs her crash helmet*
Wearing religious symbols...I don't care what your religion is, if one group can't wear their symbol, no one can. If Wiccans can't wear their pentacle, then Christians can't wear their cross. Ergo, if one group CAN wear their symbol, then so can everyone else.
Most religions are not bad...there're only a few cults that *I* can think of that promote hatred. Buddhists, Christians, Wicca, all of them believe in peace. Even Satanists (TRUE Satanists, not hoodlums who give the rest a bad name) believe in respect towards living things.

So...equality for all! And no, I'm not a Satanist.

Baby Rollo
June 14th, 2004, 04:10 PM
I think I'll go around wearing a swastika necklace because it's an ancient symbol used by many cultures and I don't care if anyone will be offended even though it's the symbol of the nazi party.

LordTBT
June 14th, 2004, 04:50 PM
I consider wicca a pagan cult. It's been around for 50 years, that makes it a religion all right :rolleyes:

Baby Rollo
June 14th, 2004, 05:45 PM
It's as much a religion as Catholicism, Judaism, or Scientology. Age doesn't define if something is a religion or not.

Slagar the Cruel
June 14th, 2004, 06:37 PM
Originally posted by Senav
Even Satanists (TRUE Satanists, not hoodlums who give the rest a bad name) believe in respect towards living things.
...? Since when?


I consider wicca a pagan cult. It's been around for 50 years, that makes it a religion all right
Shame on you, TBT. I suppose next you'll be telling us that Jediism (http://www.jediism.org/) isn't a valid religion, either? :rolleyes:

The Red Badger
June 14th, 2004, 06:50 PM
This is one of those things I think it's pointless to comment on the core of. We don't really know the circumstances surrounding the pentacle-wearing punishment, only some second- or third-hand information ("a friend of a friend told me"), depending upon how you look at it. We're to take from Goddess' statement that her information came secondhand via the friend ("It was a public school. I know several people that went there." certainly doesn't suggest she, herself, attended that school), and that presents the possibility of a very one-sided take on the situation. Then we have the rule itself, which sounds rather suspect to me. Consider that, in Maine I believe it was, a *teacher* was fired for wearing a cross *underneath her blouse*. With the ACLU sue-happy over anything Christian in public schools, I honestly can't envision a *public* school having such a rule in place. Perhaps a rule that jewelry is prohibited unless it's of a faith nature, such as a cross or the star of David, but nothing pro-Christian anti-everything else. The only place I can see anything of the sort being imposed is at a private or charter school, which would have that right. So, I don't think we're getting the whole story. We don't know if there are people in her area who do use that symbol for gang related activities, we don't know the wording of the rule, we don't know whether she knew about that rule beforehand or not (and was thus antagonizing the school), we just flat out don't know. We only know what the friend of a friend told us. :p

Personally, I think it's a bit naive to expect the average person to know, at a glance, that a pentagram isn't a pentagram if you turn it upside down. :rolleyes: I also question the wisdom of Wiccans, when they're trying not to be called "witches", to closely associate themselves with a symbol easily mistaken for that of the devil's (a triangle is a triangle whether it's upside down or not).

And I am absolutely shocked to see Satanists defended here. Just when you think you've seen it all and that you know someone.

This whole thread is giving me deja vu. I'm reminded of a girl who went and egged her school on Halloween night, got ditched by her friends, caught by the police, and proceeded to whine about it here for a few weeks. :rolleyes:

Oh, well. :redsy

Slagar the Cruel
June 14th, 2004, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by The Red Badger
This whole thread is giving me deja vu. I'm reminded of a girl who went and egged her school on Halloween night, got ditched by her friends, caught by the police, and proceeded to whine about it here for a few weeks. :rolleyes:
Yikes... I can remember that incident far too well for my liking. :eek: Let's hope the parallel stops here, then.

LordTBT
June 14th, 2004, 10:06 PM
This whole thread is giving me deja vu. I'm reminded of a girl who went and egged her school on Halloween night, got ditched by her friends, caught by the police, and proceeded to whine about it here for a few weeks.

ahaha. some "friends" right.


Shame on you, TBT. I suppose next you'll be telling us that Jediism isn't a valid religion, either?

where is the :smirk: emoticon when you need one?


It's as much a religion as Catholicism, Judaism, or Scientology. Age doesn't define if something is a religion or not.

No it doesnt, but the claims that its some ancient nature religion or something is just ridiculous. And that its a pagan cult.

Cinnabarr Rivershell
June 14th, 2004, 10:17 PM
Careful guys, MtW might get upset again and make this thread into another thread, which he already had to do a while ago. Boy, if that happens, then this thread will be dubbed "unlucky" by me.

Rillflag27
June 14th, 2004, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by Slagar the Cruel

Shame on you, TBT. I suppose next you'll be telling us that Jediism (http://www.jediism.org/) isn't a valid religion, either? :rolleyes:

You've got to be kidding me....*dies laughing*

Keyla
June 15th, 2004, 02:36 AM
And I am absolutely shocked to see Satanists defended here. Just when you think you've seen it all and that you know someone.
I don't think people are defending satanism, rather its right to co-exist with other faiths and belief systems. The fact that someone has rights doesn't mean people think what they are doing is right, just as it's wrong for a Muslim country to ban Christianity and all expressions of that faith. Of course, this happens and is a terrible thing, but I thought we claimed to be tolerant...

Baby Rollo
June 15th, 2004, 12:45 PM
No it doesnt, but the claims that its some ancient nature religion or something is just ridiculous. And that its a pagan cult.

So, paganism can't be a religion just because it believes in multiple Gods? Hmph, try telling that to those people who still worship the Norse Gods or Gaia.

LordTBT
June 15th, 2004, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Keyla
I don't think people are defending satanism, rather its right to co-exist with other faiths and belief systems. The fact that someone has rights doesn't mean people think what they are doing is right, just as it's wrong for a Muslim country to ban Christianity and all expressions of that faith. Of course, this happens and is a terrible thing, but I thought we claimed to be tolerant...


The irony of the whole matter is, the Quran states that Muslims are supposed to respect Christians and Jews, they even believe Jesus was a prophet.

Jandura
June 15th, 2004, 03:17 PM
That's one big contradiction to what we see today.

Cheesethief
June 15th, 2004, 03:34 PM
all the crads the msps gave each other had to say "have a merry festive period" etc, not merry christmas, beccause of stuff with religion. even the head of muslims in scotland said it was stupid cos scotland is christian.

LordTBT
June 15th, 2004, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Cheesethief
all the crads the msps gave each other had to say "have a merry festive period" etc, not merry christmas, beccause of stuff with religion. even the head of muslims in scotland said it was stupid cos scotland is christian.

heh. Ramadan ends before December even begins.(Islamic Holiday). And the whole gift-giving part of Chanukah was to copy Christmas.

The Red Badger
June 15th, 2004, 06:32 PM
Guys, we don't want to stray into insulting other's belief systems. It's why the religion rule is in place. So, even if you believe Wiccans are a pagan cult, kindly keep it to yourself because we'll have a religious flame war on our hands real quick. :cool:


I don't think people are defending satanism, rather its right to co-exist with other faiths and belief systems.

I didn't get that at all. But then, I was referring to the very specific line:

"Even Satanists (TRUE Satanists, not hoodlums who give the rest a bad name) believe in respect towards living things."

The implication I took from that statement is that it is a few hoodlums giving Satanism a bad name (rather than, I dunno, the NAME "Satanism"? :rolleyes: ) and that it is a "faith" promoting respect towards living things. It sure *sounded* like a defense of it to me. If Vanessa tells me where my analysis went wrong, I'll gladly apologize, but I honestly don't think my interpretation of the statement is incorrect.

It's like saying a few bad eggs have given Naziism a bad name and that TRUE Nazis believe in racial equality. :p

Baby Rollo
June 15th, 2004, 08:07 PM
It's like saying a few bad eggs have given Naziism a bad name and that TRUE Nazis believe in racial equality

They believed in racial equality all right. Everyone would have blond hair and blue eyes once the "lesser" races were taken care of.

Senav
June 16th, 2004, 04:42 PM
It was a defense. I'm not trying to cause trouble, be sure of that. I'm just stating my opinion. I have nothing against Christians, or any religion.
I'm not telling you to go out and do a ton of research on Satanism. I assume you're a Christian, Reds, so you have reason enough to avoid Satanism like the plague. I, personally, don't know any Satanists (none that I know of), but I've read that Satanism is NOT about torturing innocent critters or eating babies. Rather, they exalt animals and children as the purest forms of life, and discourage drug abuse to "appease the dark lord". This is all stuff that I've read. However, I'd sooner believe what I just typed from the mouth of a Satanist, than belive what someone like Jack Chick would say on the matter. I honestly think that Jack Chick doesn't have all the lights on upstairs.
Other than the name "Satanism", I really don't find all that much wrong with it. Then you see the angsty outcast in black with inverted crosses who thinks he can prove something by ridiculing Christians. They annoy me too.

BTW, Wicca was based on the older Druidic religions, I think. Druidism supposedly predates Christianity by a loooong time, a lot of faiths do.