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Wormerwing
January 16th, 2005, 10:50 AM
Has anyone else noticed certain little mysteries in the books? Like is Madd in The Taggerung Fwirl's Mother?

Badrang3
January 16th, 2005, 12:21 PM
I never thought of that one before.

I did notice that the really old squirrel that's mentioned in Pearls of Lutra was supposedly the oldest person at the Abbey for the longest time. But if that were the case, how come she wasn't mentioned in Mattimeo?

Cheesethief
January 16th, 2005, 02:49 PM
You didn't? I thought that was obvious!

Badrang3
January 16th, 2005, 02:53 PM
She was there for such a brief time that I never really gave it that much thought. She seemed more like a character that was introduced just for the sake of pointing out how evil the vermin of the times were.

Rolinko
January 16th, 2005, 02:59 PM
Actually I don't think Pearls of Lutra says Fermald the squirrel is the oldest, unless you have a page or a chapter in mind. I read from the book just now that she had "overlong seasons" (chapter 5), but nothing about being the oldest. I don't think she's older than Rollo; mebbe born a season or two after Mattimeo - the book. And even if she was around in Mattimeo, mebbe she was just an unnamed Dibbun about Rollo's age. And I doubt anybeast is older than Auma in PoL.

One mystery I don't think has ever been solved is the first and oldest one of all- The riddle behind the tapestry of Martin the Warrior. Who inscribed it and when? It's agreeable to think that Martin's ghost "influenced" some hapless creature to mark it on the wall when nobody else was around, at night or something. But before you say it was Matthias or Methuselah, the book tells us that the letters were covered with "the dust of ages". So they had been carved a good while before M&M undusted them. But in the event that Matthias had not been born (not in the Abbey, mind you, but somewhere in Mossflower Wood) until after the riddle was etched into the wall, then how did Martin know Matthias's name? Did he use ghostly supernatural powers to predict the future, or travel through time?

Badrang3
January 16th, 2005, 03:14 PM
Maybe Martin snuck into the forge at Salamandastron and got visions of his future like all the badgers that go up there do and carved it into the wall himself.

Cinnabarr Rivershell
January 16th, 2005, 05:25 PM
From Ask Brian on Redwall.org (http://www.redwall.org/dave/answers4.html)


Q: In The Taggerung, why did you not reunite Mad with her daughter and restore her sanity?
A: Such is life.

There we go. That mystery is now a fact! Welcome to the Forum Wormerwing!

Wormerwing
January 16th, 2005, 06:21 PM
Thanks Cinnabarr, and all of you who've posted. :)



(Don't you just "looove" ;) formalities?)

Cheesethief
January 17th, 2005, 02:26 PM
Rolinko- I believe that Martin used his ethereal precognition to find out about Matthias. There are several things in the story that have been done by Martin to influence future generations.

Anyway, I think that is kind of nitpicking. I guess Martin possessed somebeast to carve them, maybe he himself did. They must have been known when the tapestry was modified to record the history of Redwall, but were maybe forgotten. Maybe Methusaleh knew about them.

Wormerwing
January 18th, 2005, 05:30 PM
Oh, is Lonna Bowstripe's gaurdian, whotisname...(goes check books)...yeah,Grawn, mentioned any any other books? If so, I've got an idea.

Ferahgo the Assassin
January 18th, 2005, 05:39 PM
I remember another funny little inconsistancy. Remember Diggum and Gurrbowl, the two mole Dibbuns in Pearls of Lutra? They mysteriously switched gender in The Long Patrol.

Lonna Bowstripe
January 18th, 2005, 05:40 PM
No, and neither am I, though I wish I was. ;)

Wormerwing
January 18th, 2005, 06:04 PM
Thanks(sorta) Lonna, and yeah, it sucks, I really liked you/him.



Well, so much for my idea. :rolleyes:

Cheesethief
January 19th, 2005, 01:20 PM
Hey, Ferahgo, I'll have to check that out tonight. Interesting, though.

Eventually, someone's going to bring up the sword, aren't they?

Wormerwing
January 19th, 2005, 03:44 PM
Eventually someone's going to bring up the sword.


What, the fact that it seems to enable it's bearer(if good) to fight better, the fact that it always finds a bearer at the time of greatest need, or the fact that Boar was able to repair the broken blade to a point of awesome skillfulness, even though he obviously knew Ripfang was going to attack?

Badrang3
January 19th, 2005, 05:59 PM
The sword doesn't help people fight better, it's specifically designed to kill things. Spriggat and Squire Julian both bring this up.

Wormerwing
January 19th, 2005, 06:06 PM
It's been I while since I have read either Redwall or Loamhedge, but anyway I said seems.

Also, it does seem that although the sword does not help its bearer, Martin usually helps in some way, whether giving advice to the current(good) owners of it, such as in Mariel of Redwall (Dandin in mud), or sending warnings in times of battle.

So, before you argue, the sword itself does not help, but Martin does.

Badrang3
January 19th, 2005, 06:15 PM
What, the fact that it seems to enable it's bearer(if good) to fight better, the fact that it always finds a bearer at the time of greatest need, or the fact that Boar was able to repair the broken blade to a point of awesome skillfulness, even though he obviously knew Ripfang was going to attack?


So, before you argue, the sword itself does not help, but Martin does.

You seem to have contradicted yourself. I don't understand what point your trying to get across.

Bladeswift
January 19th, 2005, 06:23 PM
The sword doesn't help people fight better, it's specifically designed to kill things. Spriggat and Squire Julian both bring this up.
That still doesn't explain how Matthias, who had never held a sword in his life and tripped over his own feet in the beginning of the story was able to fight with a seasoned fighter like Cluny.

Wormerwing
January 19th, 2005, 07:09 PM
You seem to have contradicted yourself. I don't understand what point your trying to get across.

I was looking for an excuse, and apparently that wasn't a very good one. See what happens when you get me backed into a corner? :(


I contradict myself, though usually I tend to not contradict myself.
^ joke, please no comment

Badrang3
January 19th, 2005, 07:39 PM
That still doesn't explain how Matthias, who had never held a sword in his life and tripped over his own feet in the beginning of the story was able to fight with a seasoned fighter like Cluny.

Because he had been training for several weeks using staffs at the abbey, which gave him a basic idea on how to kill things. Also, Cluny was probably terrified witless since the figure of his dreams had come to meet him, so he probably wasn't giving it his all.

Wormerwing
January 19th, 2005, 07:46 PM
Because he had been training for several weeks using staffs at the abbey, which gave him a basic idea on how to kill things. Also, Cluny was probably terrified witless since the figure of his dreams had come to meet him, so he probably wasn't giving it his all.

If Cluny was scared, how about when Matthias met Basil, or the whole Asmodeus thing, or, if none of those count, in Mattimeo he's a very powerful warrior. Or was Slagar terrified too. ;)

Bladeswift
January 19th, 2005, 07:51 PM
Because he had been training for several weeks using staffs at the abbey, which gave him a basic idea on how to kill things. Also, Cluny was probably terrified witless since the figure of his dreams had come to meet him, so he probably wasn't giving it his all.
He would have had to have been completely scared out of his wits because only a few week's training, with a staff no less, isn't going to make someone a professional fighter.

Badrang3
January 19th, 2005, 08:03 PM
He would have had to have been completely scared out of his wits because only a few week's training, with a staff no less, isn't going to make someone a professional fighter.

He wasn't afraid because he had this amazing thing called courage, something he knew Cluny didn't posess.


If Cluny was scared, how about when Matthias met Basil, or the whole Asmodeus thing, or, if none of those count, in Mattimeo he's a very powerful warrior. Or was Slagar terrified too.

Matthias wasn't scared when he met Basil, he was merely startled. And quite frankly, anyone would be scared of a snake that was ten times your size, so you can't hold that against him. And finally, Slagar was way too crazy to be truly afraid because in his mind he thought he'd win no matter what.

Wormerwing
January 19th, 2005, 08:05 PM
how about when Matthias met Basil

sorry, I said that wrong. I meant, when Matthias met Basil, he was busy fighting Cluny's horde.

Bladeswift
January 19th, 2005, 08:07 PM
He wasn't afraid because he had this amazing thing called courage, something he knew Cluny didn't posess.
I was refering to Cluny. The only way Cluny could have lost would have been if he were so scared that he could hardly even hold his sword.

Badrang3
January 19th, 2005, 08:10 PM
I was refering to Cluny. The only way Cluny could have lost would have been if he were so scared that he could hardly even hold his sword.

I don't understand what point you're trying to get across. Are you agreeing with me or pointing out something wrong with my statement?

Wormerwing
January 19th, 2005, 08:14 PM
This is what I'm pretty sure he meant (Blade, don't kill me if I'm wrong). You said cluny was terrified because of the dreams, so he couldn't fight. He said he must have been totally scared, because even scared he should be able to beat a young mouse half his size and can't even walk because his sandals are too big (from your perspective;in your opinion.)

Bladeswift
January 19th, 2005, 08:21 PM
I don't understand what point you're trying to get across. Are you agreeing with me or pointing out something wrong with my statement?
From what I read in the book, Cluny didn't seem all that scared. For a novice like Matthias to beat him he'd have to have been in such a complete state of terror that he wouldn't have even be able to move. In short, I'm disagreeing, and stating that the sword of Martin seems make the one who wields it an automatic warrior who knows everything about wielding a sword. Proof of this is seen in just about everyone who has wielded it, even Martin himself.

Hence why I prefer stories like Rakkety Tam, whose warriors are actual warriors.

Wormerwing
January 19th, 2005, 08:24 PM
THANK YOU! Finally, someone agrees with me(I hope). Disregard anything I've said about it not being the sword.


Also, this is a little bit out there, but stick with me. What if Halfchop wasn't really mentally damaged from the whatever it was that hit him. He seemed to know what was going on more than the rest of the group gave him credit for. Sequal to Loamhedge perhaps?

Badrang3
January 19th, 2005, 09:27 PM
In short, I'm disagreeing, and stating that the sword of Martin seems make the one who wields it an automatic warrior who knows everything about wielding a sword. Proof of this is seen in just about everyone who has wielded it, even Martin himself.
.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it worked that way on Dandin. I can't remember if he even uses it in a full battle in Mariel.

The only time that the sword seems to magically enhanse the warriors fighting is with Triss and Samkim. Everyone else has legitamite training to weild it.

Bladeswift
January 20th, 2005, 05:04 AM
I'm in a rush, so I'm listing those off the top of my head.

Martin the Warrior-Never actually taught how to use a sword by his father. Then becomes a slave at Marshank and has is weapon taken away from him. Yet is still able to best Badrang in combat.

Matthias-Bumbling mouse who only has a few week's training at the most, yet wields it like he had used it for years.

Samkin-(You already mentioned him, but still worth noting.) Supposedly good with a bow, yet until he found Martin's sword he had never used one before.

Dandin-To my knowledge he was never trained in the art of combat at all. Yet takes the sword of Martin along. Also in the Bellmaker uses a dagger skillfully as well.

Wormerwing
January 20th, 2005, 07:16 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it worked that way on Dandin. I can't remember if he even uses it in a full battle in Mariel.

The only time that the sword seems to magically enhanse the warriors fighting is with Triss and Samkim. Everyone else has legitamite training to weild it.

Dandin-Yes, he used it during the taking of Terramort.

Triss- She should have been able to fight that way anyway. She'd been around weapons her whole life, and was the daughter of a great swordsman. So, she might not have been in possesion of it long enough to have gotten used to it.

Awkwardness+Genes+Powers of Sword=enough to beat Kurda

Furrtil
January 20th, 2005, 02:28 PM
Er -- isn't it always possible that someone just had a knack for swordfighting? There are some people that can slamdunk the first time they hold a basketball. Don't forget the possibility of natural talent. And if I remember correctly, Matthias was clumsy in the beginning of Redwall because his sandals were too big.

Aleisou Swiftpounce
January 20th, 2005, 03:14 PM
Well, first things first, many of the heroes kill the villains using their wits/accidents.

Matthias - chopped through the bellrope. SMASH! Doesn't take much swordtraining.
Triss - Kurda fell over onto her own sword.

Umm... I can't think of any more at the moment (my mum's calling me for something). Bah. Post more later...

Wormerwing
January 20th, 2005, 03:26 PM
1. Matthias could have beat Cluny

2. Triss was desperately beating Kurda

3. They both had never used a sword in their life. (Well, at least Triss held one, or two, or a lot.)

4. Mix with water. Stir until thick.

Bladeswift
January 20th, 2005, 04:47 PM
Well, first things first, many of the heroes kill the villains using their wits/accidents.

Matthias - chopped through the bellrope. SMASH! Doesn't take much swordtraining.


That's not what bothers me. It's the fact that he was able to match Cluny long enough to get to the bellrope in the first place. Cluny should have killed him on the spot.

Badrang3
January 20th, 2005, 04:55 PM
That's not what bothers me. It's the fact that he was able to match Cluny long enough to get to the bellrope in the first place. Cluny should have killed him on the spot.

He didn't kill him on the spot because not only had the figure from his dreams come to confront him, but at the same time the Guosim had broken into the Abbey and were rapidly defeating his army. His mind was overburdened and he wasn't thinking nearly as clearly as he should have.

Wormerwing
January 20th, 2005, 05:05 PM
Okay, picture it like this. You are crazy. Police are swarming your house. You have yourself locked in your bedroom. The police will kill you if you get out. In the room with you is a psychotic 4-year-old. He will stab you with a kitchen knife unless you stab him with your kitchen knife. Unfortunately, he has been in your nightmares forever. Above you is a crate. That crate is on a pulley system. The 4-year-old will cut that rope. Would you be able to either kill the kid or at least move out of the way of the crate?

Bladeswift
January 20th, 2005, 05:20 PM
Okay, picture it like this. You are crazy. Police are swarming your house. You have yourself locked in your bedroom. The police will kill you if you get out. In the room with you is a psychotic 4-year-old. He will stab you with a kitchen knife unless you stab him with your kitchen knife. Unfortunately, he has been in your nightmares forever. Above you is a crate. That crate is on a pulley system. The 4-year-old will cut that rope. Would you be able to either kill the kid or at least move out of the way of the crate?
I'm not really able to put myself into that situation to give a solid answer (too bizarre), but I'd still think I'd be able to kill them.

A peasant doesn't kill a knight, a white belt doesn't beat a black belt, a novice mouse doesn't beat a killer rat. In Matthias' defense I'm willing to say that it'd be possible for him to land a blow out of pure luck.

Badrang3
January 20th, 2005, 06:55 PM
Okay, picture it like this. You are crazy. Police are swarming your house. You have yourself locked in your bedroom. The police will kill you if you get out. In the room with you is a psychotic 4-year-old. He will stab you with a kitchen knife unless you stab him with your kitchen knife. Unfortunately, he has been in your nightmares forever. Above you is a crate. That crate is on a pulley system. The 4-year-old will cut that rope. Would you be able to either kill the kid or at least move out of the way of the crate?

The reason Cluny didn't get out of the way of the bell is because he thought Matthias was goinig to come down. It was a completley unexpected move.

And you keep underestimating the power of fear.

Wormerwing
January 20th, 2005, 07:07 PM
And you're overestimating the power of young Matthias. He is young, 13-15. He is probably also scared out of his wits. Cluny is bigger, stronger, and is a more experienced fighter. He should be able to beat Matthias. But he doesn't. Matthias has the Sword of Martin. Case Closed.

Badrang3
January 20th, 2005, 07:10 PM
Matthias WASN'T scared because he had COURAGE! Cluny DIDN'T! Cluny was a really big BULLY! He could only kill things with NO COURAGE TO STAND UP TO HIM! THAT WAS THE OVERALL MESSAGE OF THE ENTIRE BOOK!

So there.

Wormerwing
January 20th, 2005, 07:17 PM
[qoute=Wikipedia]Courage is the ability to confront fear in the face of pain, danger, uncertainty or intimidation. As a virtue, courage is covered extensively in Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics, its vice of deficiency being cowardice, and its vice of excess being recklessness.

The precise view of what constitutes courage not only varies among cultures, but among individuals. For instance, some define courage as lacking fear in a situation that would normally generate it. Others, in contrast, hold that courage requires one to have fear and then overcome it. [/quote]
red=me
green=Badrang3
Apparently, we just have different beliefs. Case Closed (again?)

Cheesethief
January 21st, 2005, 02:53 PM
Haven't been able to post here, and I had some good arguments too. Server problem.

Basically, Martin's spirit, is, I'm sure it says, channelled against Cluny using Matthias as a medium. Do you not notice that as he finds more about Redwall's history, he becomes stronger-willed? The armour masks his face-when he emerges, he is confident, brave, and stronger than before. Martin's spirit is coursing through him.

Incidentally, when I first mentioned the sword, it was about how it is hidden, then reappears somewhere else. Used to be a burning issue.

Senav
January 21st, 2005, 03:02 PM
Martin's sword gives one magical fighting abilities? Apparently so.
To weild a big, heavy sword like Martin's, one needs training. Lots of. A staff and a dagger doesn't cut it (haha, cut it! get it?). Even if Matthias was young'n'strong, even if he did have Martins "spirit" behind him, an inexperienced little sprog like him doesn't stand a chance. Or, shouldn't. If it were real life, Cluny would've eaten him (not just referring to the fact that rats can and do eat mice).

And yes, courage is facing danger no matter how scared you are. It's overcoming your fears.

Cheesethief
January 21st, 2005, 03:20 PM
Wormerwing's definitions-I would agree with you, WW. I mean, a stupid person would have no fear if confronted by an evil armoured demon, would they? Because they just wouldn't take it in. So that definition is not exclusive to courage. Thus, WW's green is more appropriate.

Senav-Redwall isn't about the "real world". It's a story. So, Matthias can beat Cluny.

Case closed (not).

Wormerwing
January 21st, 2005, 03:48 PM
Just had a lot of memories.
1. What happened to Badredd/Flinky's band?
2. Mara- Salamandastron and Mara-Mattimeo/PoL?
3. How did King Bull Sparra get Martin's sword again?(just wondering)
4. Riftgard, Terramort, Samptera, the one in Martin the Warrior(forgot name), same island?
5. I know it's been said by BJ that the Ripfang in Redwall is not the one in Lord Brocktree, but maybe a relative? He made it out, might have had a son with the same genetic disorder, and told him of Salamandastron.

Badrang3
January 21st, 2005, 03:59 PM
Just had a lot of memories.
1. What happened to Badredd/Flinky's band?
2. Mara- Salamandastron and Mara-Mattimeo/PoL?
3. How did King Bull Sparra get Martin's sword again?(just wondering)
4. Riftgard, Terramort, Samptera, the one in Martin the Warrior(forgot name), same island?
5. I know it's been said by BJ that the Ripfang in Redwall is not the one in Lord Brocktree, but maybe a relative? He made it out, might have had a son with the same genetic disorder, and told him of Salamandastron.

1. They joined the circus.
2. You've mistaken Mara with Auma.
3. He didn't
4. I believe Riftguard was northern and Sampetra was Southern. Marshank wasn't an island, and Terramort doesn't match the description of Sampetra.
5. Could be.

Wormerwing
January 21st, 2005, 04:02 PM
1. They joined the circus.
2. You've mistaken Mara with Auma.
3. He didn't
4. I believe Riftguard was northern and Sampetra was Southern,
5. Could be.
1.Okaaaay
2.Sorry, thought so, didn't want to go get book
3.Riiiight ;)
4.What about the other ones?
5.Least I got one mystery :)

Badrang3
January 21st, 2005, 04:09 PM
Heres a mystery: How old is Ferhago? He kills Urthstripes parents when Urthstripes a baby, and when we finally get to see Urthstripe as an adult, he's portrayed as fairly old. So Ferhago must be REALLY old, right?

Wormerwing
January 21st, 2005, 04:10 PM
According to his son, he is.

Wormerwing
January 21st, 2005, 08:06 PM
Sorry 'bout the double post, but I was reading Marlfox(for the tenth time), and I noticed something. Are the Sensational Noonvale la-dee-da-dee-da descendants of the Rambling Rosehip players in MtW?

Hisk
January 21st, 2005, 08:59 PM
Possibly. Or BrianJ may have just re-used the "idea".

Wormerwing
January 21st, 2005, 09:08 PM
Didn't the Rosehip people go to Noonvale in the end?

Ferahgo the Assassin
January 21st, 2005, 09:13 PM
Heres a mystery: How old is Ferhago? He kills Urthstripes parents when Urthstripes a baby, and when we finally get to see Urthstripe as an adult, he's portrayed as fairly old. So Ferhago must be REALLY old, right?

I saw it this way: when he killed Urthstripe's parents in the beginning, he was a young adult, just out of his 'teenage' years and already ruling a small horde. When Urthstripe is an adult, Ferahgo is middle-aged. Human terms: 20 in the beginning, say, 25 years later (I didn't see Urthstripe as being very old in the book), Ferahgo is around 45.

Wormerwing
January 21st, 2005, 09:15 PM
And that would make Klitch, sayyy, 20 or so? Of course, who knows when vermin in Mossflower, ummm, "Court".

Ferahgo the Assassin
January 21st, 2005, 09:17 PM
And that would make Klitch, sayyy, 20 or so? Of course, who knows when vermin in Mossflower, ummm, "Court".

I saw Klitch to be a bit younger than Ferahgo was in the beginning - maybe around 15-18. Ferahgo must've gotten a mate a couple years after killing Urthstripe's parents.

Wormerwing
January 21st, 2005, 09:21 PM
Yes, I can see it now,"Hey wanna get together? I'm a ruthless killer, murderer, thief, traitor, but I've got the most dazzling eyes ever. ;)

Ferahgo the Assassin
January 21st, 2005, 09:42 PM
Yes, I can see it now,"Hey wanna get together? I'm a ruthless killer, murderer, thief, traitor, but I've got the most dazzling eyes ever. ;)

Ferahgo was easily one of the (if not the) most charismatic bad guys of the series.

And anyway, something must've worked because, well, there was Klitch. ;)

Badrang3
January 21st, 2005, 10:05 PM
Sorry 'bout the double post, but I was reading Marlfox(for the tenth time), and I noticed something. Are the Sensational Noonvale la-dee-da-dee-da descendants of the Rambling Rosehip players in MtW?

Yes, it mentions that Florians ancestor is Ballaw, leader of the Rambling Rosehip Players.

Wormerwing
January 21st, 2005, 10:46 PM
Darn You! I was about to post the answer to my own question when I see you've replied last. I think, "hummm, wonder what that's about?" Then I come to see you've answered my question. Curse you I say!

Also, is there only one big lake? So far it's been mentioned in(tell me if I'm wrong) Marlfox, Salamandastron, darn, forgot the rest. Some Redwall fan I am.

Sargeant Glint
January 21st, 2005, 11:51 PM
the sword finds a bearer in the time of greatest need because of the little spell that was put on it and it enables them to fight better because no matter how good you are if you have a ?????? sword your skill wont be as good because you will reach a certain ability of the sword. This sword is better than anything imaginable so there true skill wil show because the sword will alow it.

Sargeant Glint
January 21st, 2005, 11:55 PM
never mind I read the last reply on the first page and in all the books yah there is only one large lake there never was another mentioned.

Badrang3
January 22nd, 2005, 10:38 AM
I noticed while reading Pearls of Lutra that Barrancas ship is called the Freebooter, same as Plugg Firetail's ship in Triss. Do you suppose there is some sort of connection there?

Wormerwing
January 22nd, 2005, 11:17 AM
Good one Badrang. Also, I've noticed that Bella of Brockhall has been noted for being the longest living badger. What about Cregga?

Hisk
January 22nd, 2005, 01:39 PM
I noticed that there is a "Badrag" in Matti and a "Badrang" in MTW.

Wormerwing
January 22nd, 2005, 02:12 PM
Also, how come with most species they have certain behavioral traits, while rabbits(not hares) in Redwall are all differently acting.
Mattimeo-old slave rabbit
Salamandastron- jittery hidey rabbits
MtW- the infamous Mirdrops
Loamhedge- Cosbro (sumtin' like that)
Did I miss any?

Senav
January 22nd, 2005, 03:20 PM
the sword finds a bearer in the time of greatest need because of the little spell that was put on it and it enables them to fight better because no matter how good you are if you have a ?????? sword your skill wont be as good because you will reach a certain ability of the sword. This sword is better than anything imaginable so there true skill wil show because the sword will alow it. Um, I hate to sound harsh, but a little punctuation would really clear up your posts. But, I know what you're saying, and...no. It's been mentioned in the books that the sword does not make the warrior. Your skill with a sword is what counts, and in the right hands, a rusty piece of junk can be a dangerous weaopn. Likewise, a big fancy sword is completely useless in the hands of a novice.
And..um...when did Martin's sword have a spell put on it? Perhaps I missed the memo?

Sea Bogle
January 23rd, 2005, 01:15 PM
I noticed while reading Pearls of Lutra that Barrancas ship is called the Freebooter, same as Plugg Firetail's ship in Triss. Do you suppose there is some sort of connection there?

Actually, Plugg's ship was called the Seascab but the vermin in his crew call themselves Freebooters.

In Pearls of Lutra, why did the characters sail northwest to the tropical island of Sampetra?

Cheesethief
January 23rd, 2005, 01:21 PM
Good one Badrang. Also, I've noticed that Bella of Brockhall has been noted for being the longest living badger. What about Cregga? Mossflower is set before the ones with Cregga.


I noticed that there is a "Badrag" in Matti and a "Badrang" in MTW. Nope. Not a sausage.

And I'm not sure geography is really an issue in Redwall. Keyla replied to this query on another thread, and I think it was basically that someone in Britain could sail north and slightly west and reach a warmer place in the US than where they left. :rolleyes:

Wormerwing
January 23rd, 2005, 01:25 PM
In Pearls of Lutra, how could they sail north-west to the tropical island of Sampetra?
Okay, so maybe this isn't a Frequently Asked Question, but it's something that bugs Snowfur! Mossflower's climate is supposed to be roughly equivalent to Liverpool's. Sailing north-west from Liverpool (assuming you don't run into Ireland) the next land mass is Iceland! Not exactly the lush tropical jewel of Sampetra! Three theories come to mind: 1.) Sampetra is located in the middle of a very strong, Gulf-stream-like current that brings warm waters up from the tropics. 2.) The characters sailed so far north-east that they ended up going around the curve of the planet, so they were actually going south-east. 3.) Mossflower is in the southern hemisphere. Or, the fourth theory, 4.) It's really not worth obsessing over and Snowfur needs to get a life! :-)

There we go. Oddly familiar question
Also, about the Cregga thing, yeah, sorta messed up there, didn't I?

Hisk
January 23rd, 2005, 01:37 PM
Nope. Not a sausage.
Huh...........?

Cheesethief
January 23rd, 2005, 01:50 PM
Sorry, I meant no connection.

Wormerwing
January 23rd, 2005, 01:52 PM
Noonvale was around the same area as Southsward, wasn't it?

Deepspine
January 23rd, 2005, 05:28 PM
Noonvale was around the same area as Southsward, wasn't it?
No Noonvale is in the northlands, Southsward was in the south, they're a long way apart.

Wormerwing
January 23rd, 2005, 05:35 PM
Sorry, I knew it was southern-er than Marshank, forgot it was in the Northlands

Rolinko
January 23rd, 2005, 07:12 PM
Here's my speculation: Is the appearance of a polecat in Mattimeo another appearance of a species that BJ intends to never use again, similar to Cluny's horse and the Solitary Beaver in Redwall?

Wormerwing
January 23rd, 2005, 07:15 PM
1. The horse and junk were in Redwall, and BJ hadn't planned on writing a series.

2. A polecat is just a type of weasel. Between weasels, stoats, pine martens, ferrets, there just wasn't any room left in the "almost identical mustelids" group.

Lonna Bowstripe
January 23rd, 2005, 08:43 PM
How about the golden gerbil in *forgot which book it is 0.o*

Wormerwing
January 23rd, 2005, 08:44 PM
Mokug-Triss

Rolinko
January 24th, 2005, 11:14 AM
1. The horse and junk were in Redwall, and BJ hadn't planned on writing a series.
2. A polecat is just a type of weasel. Between weasels, stoats, pine martens, ferrets, there just wasn't any room left in the "almost identical mustelids" group.1. Yes, I know that. But my question is, was the polecat another member of that "junk before series was fully planned" category? I'd like to note that deer are mentioned in Martin the Warrior, the sixth book in the series, long after BJ apparantly decided to not use them, long after Basil Stag Hare referred to his namesake. Rose said to Grumm, "You're a dear!" Grumm said, "I be no deer, I be a gurt mole, hurr aye!"
2. There's always room in your so-called "almost identical mustelids" group. After all, you forgot ermine which, in Redwall at least, are different from stoats.
I assume that in your first use of the word weasel, you were referring to the genus Mustela, of which weasels, stoats, and ferrets are indeed members. But when you used the word mustelids, I was not certain whether you meant genus Mustela, subfamily Mustelinae (martens, weasels, wolverines, and relatives), or family Mustelidae (badgers, otters, skunks, weasels, and relatives). For the record, ferrets are different enough from other weasels, and are actually a subspecies of polecats; and pine martens are a whole other story; they belong to the genus Martes.

Cheesethief
January 24th, 2005, 12:46 PM
In answer to your query, Rolinko: I don't think we're gonna know. I suspect Brian just put in a name for a vaguely relevant animal, and forgot about it. I won't be surprised if it's happened more recently.

Anyway, deer are a bit of a borderline thing. I think that deer are regarded as legendary creatures in the series, almost myths.

Wormerwing
January 24th, 2005, 03:27 PM
Also, about what Grumm said, it might not even have to do with deer themselves. Say, someone called me a glumpdy. I'd say I'm not a glumpdy(even though I don't know what it is, I'd say I wasn't one).

Hisk
January 24th, 2005, 03:52 PM
I think horses now fall under the legendary creatures catagory also for Redwallers. (maybe there arent any beavers because the one in Redwall was the last. It was SOLITARY remember?). anyway, just my thoughts on this.

Ferahgo the Assassin
January 24th, 2005, 05:02 PM
Nice to know someone else on here knows their mustelidae, Rolinko. :)

I think there's a good reason for why deer, horses or stags don't actually play a part in Redwall: it's considerably harder to anthromorphize hooved animals. First of all, it'd be rather awkward making them stand on two legs, and since they don't have flexible digits like the other Redwallian animals, it'd be hard for them to use weapons, cook, use tools, or have clothes (how would they put them on? ;)). It's probably just better, overall, to leave the complications involved with ungulates out of the Redwall world.

They're better left as legendary animals, like the whales (and the sealions, sort of?) and such.

By the way - I think it's a possibility that we'll see polecats again, but of course, as Cheese said, it's impossible to really know.

Rolinko
January 24th, 2005, 06:04 PM
I only pretend to know my mustelidae, Ferahgo. Or is it Mustelinae? Or Mustela?...
I think it odd that one definition of the word weasel is a member of the genus Mustela, which means that ermines (stoats), ferrets, minks, and weasels are weasels. :eek: Really?
In answer to your query, Rolinko: I don't think we're gonna know. I suspect Brian just put in a name for a vaguely relevant animal, and forgot about it. I won't be surprised if it's happened more recently.This is a bit obsolete but you were referring to polecats here, and not deer, right?

I might as well cite my references. ADW (http://animaldiversity.ummz.umich.edu/site/index.html). Everything you could ever learn about the animal kingdom. Every scientific name. U of Michigan; wonder if Lord TBT has heard of it. Ravenwolf's Guide to Redwall Mustelids (http://tatooine.fortunecity.com/bester/296/index.html). A quaint little site that makes it all clear. Or as clear as it gets. Dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=weasel) definition of a weasel.

And the moral of today's stoy is... A weasel is a type of weasel. :mad:

Senav
January 25th, 2005, 08:26 AM
*pats Rolinko on the back* You know what ADW is. You deserve a cookie.
The weasel family is confusing...not much help from fanfiction writers who think that just because two animals are related, they can produce offspring. Weasels and mink may be in the same genus, but I highly doubt that they can crossbreed. Even worse: otter/mink or mouse/rat. Eeegh...

Badrang3
January 25th, 2005, 08:57 AM
I was reading Loamhedge again, when I noticed that Springald asked Bragoon if he was the Skipper once, to which Brag says yes. I thought that they ran off as dibbuns, so how would he have become the Skipper?

Cheesethief
January 25th, 2005, 03:15 PM
This is a bit obsolete but you were referring to polecats here, and not deer, right? I wouldn't call a day making something obsolete. :D But yeah, I meant polecats.

Badrang: Being Skipper doesn't necessarily have to be anything to do with Redwall. But isn't it weird that in some books there is one Skipper to effectively rule them all, but in older books there appear to be several, of different tribes?

Bladeswift
January 25th, 2005, 03:17 PM
I was reading Loamhedge again, when I noticed that Springald asked Bragoon if he was the Skipper once, to which Brag says yes. I thought that they ran off as dibbuns, so how would he have become the Skipper?
From the Redwall Encyclopedia:

Bragoon. "...He was Skipper of otters for while before he quit to go adventuring with Saro."

Cheesethief
January 25th, 2005, 03:48 PM
Actually, I don't think that's a legitimate answer. Badrang wanted to know about how he got the post after leaving with Saro as a Dibbun. But using your info, we can assume that they wandered for many seasons, until perhaps joining up with some otters, where Bragoon excelled, and was made Skipper. But Saro was not at home among the otters, and Bragoon left again with her.

Badrang3
January 25th, 2005, 05:26 PM
But than how would Spingald have known that? She asks the question more out of spite than anything, implying that someone had told her that the great Bragoon had at one time been the Skipper. But if he was a Skipper of another group of otters foriegn to Redwall, no one would have known.

Bladeswift
January 25th, 2005, 06:04 PM
I don't have a copy of the book, so I'm just going off memory and common sense. From memory, Springald didn't ask the question as if she already knew the answer, and it was more a question of simple curiosity. Possible explanations to think he was a Skipper:

1) He was mischievous as a Dibbun, and most Skippers I've seen are like overgrown naughty Dibbuns. Therefore all the more reason for him to become a Skipper of Otters.

2) He was an otter. A runaway otter was bound to find a holt of otters, and no doubt fit in with them, along the way.

3) No doubt that visitors of Redwall would bring news of what was going on in Mossflower. A new Skipper, an otter by the name of Bragoon, or something else of interest might have very well been mentioned.

4) He was old and yet surprisingly fit for his age. A good trait to have for a leader.

Grath
January 26th, 2005, 09:29 PM
Heres a fun question. How many years or seasons, whichever sounds better to you, do you think it has been from Mossflower until Rakkety Tam?

Also how old is Cregga by the end of the Taggerung and what about Russano shouldn't he be really old too?

Rolinko
January 26th, 2005, 09:41 PM
I think those speculations can only be called...

...unspeculatable.

Badrang3
January 27th, 2005, 01:27 PM
[QUOTE=Grath]Heres a fun question. How many years or seasons, whichever sounds better to you, do you think it has been from Mossflower until Rakkety Tam?
QUOTE]

I haven't read Rakkety Tam yet, so i'm just going to go up to Loamhedge. (This will be counted in generations)

Mariel: I think it says Dandins great grandad was Gonff, so that's 4 generations.

Salamandastron: Mother Vale has taken over for Abbot Saxtus. 1 generation.

Redwall: It doesn't give anything to work on here, so I'm just going to say 4.

Pearls of Lutra: Matthias and Mattimeo are both dead. 2 generations since Redwall.

Long Patrol: Tansy is Abbess. 1 generation.

Marlfox: Tansy is gone, but Butty is still there, so only 1.

Taggerung: There is no one left from Marlfox except Cregga, so its' safe to say 2.

Triss: Russano is Sagax's 5th great grandsire, and since badgers live twice as long as anyone else, that's 10 generations.

Loamhedge: Once again, nothing to work on, so I'll say 4 generations.

Addeded together: 29 generations have passed since Mossflower. Holy dinah.

Wormerwing
January 27th, 2005, 03:29 PM
Also how old is Cregga by the end of the Taggerung and what about Russano shouldn't he be really old too?
Well, if you think about it, Cregga was maybe just reaching her middle ages in Long Patrol, and Russano was just born. Add say, 50 human-equivalent years, and you get really old Cregga, just about badger prime for Russano.(I'm saying this because not only do badgers live longer, they also seem to take longer to age.)

Badrang3
February 1st, 2005, 06:12 PM
I noticed that after the weasel uprising in Mattimeo, there's a weasel called Snakespur who I believe only appears at that time. I couldn't find him any where else in the book.

Wormerwing
February 1st, 2005, 06:24 PM
He beamed down from the mothership to incite the riot, for Slagar paid the aliens well, with the bodies of ferrets, weasels, and rats to study.

Wormerwing
February 4th, 2005, 09:41 PM
^hundredth post on topic I started :)

Don't feel like checking, can a fieldmouse and a churchmouse successfully mate(non-mutant young)?

Cheesethief
February 5th, 2005, 10:20 AM
Well, a churchmouse isn't really a different type of mouse, it's just a figure of speech. So, yeah, they aren't dissimilar.

Wormerwing
February 6th, 2005, 05:23 PM
Ahhhhhhh. Ohhhhhhhh.

Okay, then what happened to Bagg and Runn in MoR and MtW, but not The Bellmaker? Answer that genius. ;)

Rolinko
February 6th, 2005, 06:07 PM
Bagg and Runn? They're otters. They're in Mariel. They're not in Martin or Bellmaker. Wait - Martin's prologue and epilogue. Yes. But what do they have to do with fieldmouse and a churchmouse?

Badrang3
February 6th, 2005, 09:45 PM
Here's something to ponder: Where do Cornflowers parents go? They just dissapear in Mattimeo, and they can't have died of old age because they're about the same age as Mr. and Mrs. Church mouse.

And speaking of dissapearing parents, where does Sams dad get to?

Wormerwing
February 7th, 2005, 08:44 AM
Yeah, or Mr. Vole, Lettie and Rollo's father.

Rolinko, I was thinking about Mattimeo and Tess having Martin II

Bladeswift
February 7th, 2005, 04:26 PM
Just because they aren't mentioned in the book doesn't mean they aren't there. Just think how long and pointless it would be if every creature had to be mentioned just so you knew they were there.

Badrang3
February 7th, 2005, 06:34 PM
Something funny I noticed in Redwall: When Constance states that the rats in the cart were probably evil, a group of mice stand up for rats.
"Nonsense. Pure speculation," or, "Oh sure! Give a rat a bad name!"
And everytime after that no mouse shows any simpathy for rats at all.

Hisk
February 7th, 2005, 09:27 PM
I noticed somehwere ( I think Rakkety tam) that shrew "oarsMEN" were mentioned. Oops.

Badrang3
February 11th, 2005, 06:15 PM
How come Captain Snow is the only owl that eats other creatures?

Wormerwing
February 11th, 2005, 10:01 PM
How come Captain Snow is the only owl that eats other creatures?
I don't think he is. I'm pretty sure the owl(Udara Groundslay or sumtin) in Lord Brocktree was. Also, Captain Snow was, once again in Redwall, where many things were different.

Badrang3
March 9th, 2005, 05:09 PM
I just thought of this.

In Mattimeo, the poem that Abbess Germaine left telling travelers how to get to Loamhedge tells them to beware of the Longtails (Stoneflecks Horde). Now, surely they can't have been there since Germaines time, because they are working for Malkariss. Malkariss is old, but he isn't THAT old.

Ferahgo the Assassin
March 9th, 2005, 08:11 PM
My connection died as I was posting, so sorry for the double post.

Ferahgo the Assassin
March 9th, 2005, 08:12 PM
Now, surely they can't have been there since Germaines time, because they are working for Malkariss. Malkariss is old, but he isn't THAT old.
I bet it was just an earlier generation of Longtails, and that the tribe pretty much intrabred and stayed the same over at least several generations.

Rolinko
March 10th, 2005, 11:49 AM
Are you sure the Longtails aren't the Painted Ones?

pita
March 10th, 2005, 12:50 PM
Owly facts!
notice this:
Redwall: Snow. Evil owl that becomes good
Mossflower: Unnamed. voracious. a touch evil
Mattimeo: Harry. Good and wise
Mariel of Redwall: no owl
Salamandastron: no owl
Martin the Warrior: Bo-something. Good and wise
The Bellmaker: No owl
Outcast of redwall: Sorry, no owl
Pearls of Lutra: No Owl
Long Patrol: A bunch of good owls
Marlfox: Nutwing: Good owl
Legend of look: no owl
Brocktea: Good owl
Taggerung: no owl.
Triss: no owl
Loamhedge: no owl
Rakkety tamm: haven't read yet
Notice this: The books that aren't the two introduction bookshave only good owls. Yet the ones in the two intros are evil. I'd like to repair a few things said here.
the amount of seasons up to loamhedge:
Lord brocktree starts at 0.
30 seasons after lord brocktree ends brocktree is old. boar comes. 30 seasons pass until: come in mossflower. Legend of luke is a good 40 seasons before Mossflower. Legend of luke is at 20.
Martin the warrior is when martin was 20. In legend of luke he was just born, so Martin the warrior is at 40.
In come mossflower, with it's 60 score. I have no need to explain why.
Outcast of Redwall happens when bella is VERY old. like an easy 100 after the last time. 160
The grandson of sunflash. a hundred seasons, i guess. He's pretty young in the book. Mariel of Redwall is at 260.
The bellmaker is five seasons after Mariel of redwall. 265.
Salamandastron is when saxtus has died off. not too far away from his death. I'd say an easy 46 seasons. 301.
Redwall is about 400 seasons afterwards, since the amount of spare abbots they keep finding must've been from that time. 700(and one)
eight seasons later, Mattimeo happens and it's 709.
Now i'll re-edit this post later, coz i gotta go to sleep.

Cheesethief
March 10th, 2005, 03:40 PM
The books that aren't the two introduction bookshave only good owls. Yet the ones in the two intros are evil. Sorry, I don't follow.

I like your research, but the owls' personalities are debatable at least, and your seasons may be a touch out.

Badrang3
March 10th, 2005, 08:39 PM
Are you sure the Longtails aren't the Painted Ones?

I don't think so. Doesn't the poem have an entirely different warning about the painted ones? Something about being quiet under the pine trees or something.

And as refering to pitas post, there was an owl in Mariel, Pearls of Lutra, and Triss. Their names are Stonehead, Gerrul, and Ovus.

pita
March 11th, 2005, 02:17 AM
sorry, but those owls are good too. besides, it was 9pm and i was about to go watch Inuyasha. And i was tired and i didn't remember owls well.

Cheesethief
March 11th, 2005, 02:19 PM
Mossflower: Unnamed. voracious. a touch evil It wasn't an owl.

Also, animé before bed messes your mind up. :D