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LordTBT
January 31st, 2005, 02:55 PM
A thread at Terrouge gave me some introspection on Redwall I'd never had before.

This is a brief character analysis of Martin I drew up. Be warned, there are spoilers about his life here.

In Martin's life, he has experienced way more psychologically than most characters or even people. His father left, and was never heard of again when he was young. His mother was killed. He and his grandmother were captured, and she died. Then, the femme fatale he fell in love with Rose, was also murdered.

This says a lot. It explains a lot, and I hadn't taken a step back to look at this picture before. If you remember, in Martin the Warrior, he started off being quite angry, but we don't blame him because he was captured as a slave.

However, he has some deep, DEEP emotional and psychological trauma. Everyone he loved died, and none of them died because of natural causes. Every creature he loved died through the hands of vermin. He was a ticked off little mouse. This is also seen in Mossflower, particularly when he is around Tsarmina. I would give some more specific examples, I just don't have the books at my current location. He has some serious mental issues though, that's undeniable.

It's fair to say this anger is a result of all this loss. First, his father left and his mother died. Then his grandmother died. Finally, as Martin finds someone to start a family with himself, that "woman" dies too.

He has a complete despise of all vermin, which probably comes from the fact that an evil creature has killed off important people in his life. One might go as far to say that Martin experiences pleasure from engaging battle with enemies, as he was incredibly amped to fight alongside Boar the Fighter. This pleasure he feels comes from the feeling that he is stopping future tragedies, and we see this continues in the series as he appears to future Redwall warriors, wanting them to stop baddies too.

Bladeswift
January 31st, 2005, 03:24 PM
All the more reason why I consider him one of the best mice, as well as warriors, in the series.

As for him appearing to guide others in dreams, I think he's doing it more out of his concern for others than his hatred of vermin.

Jason Caits-Cheverst
January 31st, 2005, 03:26 PM
However, we do see a strong streak of fatalism in him in his ability to take the path to meet his father without lashing out when he is asked to demonstrate his swordsmanship - an ability which centres wholly around the fact that so many people he knew have been murdered. I refer of course to The Legend of Luke, in which Martin is naught but a pacifistic figure.

Also, Martin hung up his blade and lived a life of peace in Redwall Abbey. Evidently his trauma was at least eased by the residents there, enough to combine with his good-natured fatalism to inspire him to stop fighting evil.

Just a couple of little insights. ^_^

LordTBT
January 31st, 2005, 03:28 PM
Well I said "stopping future tragedies"


Also, Martin hung up his blade and lived a life of peace in Redwall Abbey

Well as far as we know. That's a story all in itself...Martin may have had to pick up the sword one more time.

Keyla
January 31st, 2005, 04:16 PM
Of course, but I like the idea that he found closure- part of what "The Legend of Luke" is about in my opinion. He's definately one of Brian's most interesting characters. I think it's a testament to Brian's growth as a writer that the character of Martin, the strong but silent likeable warrior of "Mossflower", has bloomed into a far more complex character. Parental figures are very important in Redwall- and in the Castaways series also, but in a subtly different way. One might hypothesise that the absense of his father as he grew up led to him trying to model himself as a warrior, to be like the father he never knew, and that once he discovered what had happened to his father he was able to let go of this and finally hang up his sword. The death of female figures in his life is undoubtedly significant. After the murder of his mother his grandmother took over the maternal role but following her death this position is left vacant. TBT, I'm not sure I agree with your description of Rose as a femme fatale; she actually becomes in many ways another maternal figure. Of course she dies and eventually this role is taken over by other characters such as Bella, Abbess Germaine and interestingly Columbine. Remember how Gonff says in TLoL how sometimes it is only she who can speak to him. Ultimately I believe that the abbey community fills the emotional hole left by the lost family, providing parents and siblings to someone who has always lacked them. It is a pleasing resolution.

LordTBT
January 31st, 2005, 08:45 PM
Ultimately I believe that the abbey community fills the emotional hole left by the lost family, providing parents and siblings to someone who has always lacked them. It is a pleasing resolution.

Ultimately....maybe. I don't think years of therapy could help him.

Rolinko
February 1st, 2005, 11:31 AM
Maybe that's why he haunts the Abbey for all eternity.

Cheesethief
February 1st, 2005, 03:54 PM
He doesn't, really. He appears in times of great need (admittedly, this is quite often), but I wouldn't say that's all eternity.

I thought Timballisto, in some respects Martin's best friend, died of old age.
Everyone he loved died, and none of them died because of natural causes. So this is wrong, but I appreciate you don't have the books to hand.


I'm not sure I agree with your description of Rose as a femme fatale; she actually becomes in many ways another maternal figure. Of course she dies and eventually this role is taken over by other characters such as Bella, Abbess Germaine and interestingly Columbine. Remember how Gonff says in TLoL how sometimes it is only she who can speak to him. I agree there Keyla. I guess if one read the books from a ertain point of view, there could even be a sort of "love triangle" going on. Perhaps.
But you're right in saying Rose is equally caring as she is love interest to Martin. She's the cool one in MTW.

LordTBT
February 1st, 2005, 06:07 PM
So this is wrong, but I appreciate you don't have the books to hand.

ok mr anal retentive i think it was to be assumed i meant family or love interests not friends.

Candied Chesnut
February 1st, 2005, 08:28 PM
the loss of family at a young age seems very common in redwall. many of the main characters have deceased parents. matthias lost both his parents, dannflor lost his mom, tagg and triss lost their fathers, mariel lost her mother to unknown reasons, and grath lost all her family. others, like dandin, samkim, and arven, just seem to hang at the abbey. their parents are never mentioned, so maybe their orphans as well. or maybe theyre just unimportant characters.

if i put myself in martins shoes, i would also have a deep hatred toward vermin. but then again, dont all the furry creatures of mossflower and surrounding land harbor a dislike for vermin as well?

shadowmoon
February 2nd, 2005, 08:09 PM
And Finnbarr Galedeep, he lost his sons and wife and he was really angry as well. So Martin can be excused for being so violent. And in the end he hung his sword so he turned peaceful. There are heaps of characters like this in fantasy. eg. in Druss the Legend by David Gemmell Druss lost his wife and scourged the world to find her. He eventully did but he had tasted killing so he continued to be like a mercenery by only for the good guys until he got killed at a very old age(still fighting of course) So compared to others like that Martin isn't that bad.

NOTE: Anyone who hasnt read Druss the Legend and would like to do so should NOT read the spoilers :)

Lonna Bowstripe
February 2nd, 2005, 09:11 PM
the loss of family at a young age seems very common in redwall.It actually seems to be the fad right now. Look at Harry Potter, Eragon, the Baudeliares, Frodo, ect.

LordTBT
February 2nd, 2005, 11:10 PM
So Martin can be excused for being so violent


I don't think it's excusable per se, we just allow it.

blankey_boy
February 3rd, 2005, 03:02 AM
I thought Timballisto, in some respects Martin's best friend, died of old age. So this is wrong, but I appreciate you don't have the books to hand.
Tim ballisto died young didn't he?

Rolinko
February 3rd, 2005, 10:28 AM
He doesn't, really. He appears in times of great need (admittedly, this is quite often), but I wouldn't say that's all eternity.The abbey will always have times of great need as long as vermin walk the earth and and the world turns. That's virtually all eternity. I'm talking time span, not frequency. And Martin isn't getting any older. :)
I thought Timballisto, in some respects Martin's best friend, died of old age. So this is wrong, but I appreciate you don't have the books to hand.Yet recall that Martin said he and Tim didn't really talk much from the time they were reunited in Mossflower to when Tim died, somewhere between Mossflower and The Legend of Luke (wrong, blankey_boy, sorry). This could easily support that Martin was already "one messed-up mouse" due to the events of his life in and before Martin the Warrior. Developed slight antisocial tendencies, awkward when confronted with tragedies of youth, that kind of thing.
matthias lost both his parents...Don't forget, Matthias's parents' demises are undisclosed (like many characters' parents). Don't confuse with TV show, where he was given a history, where Cluny killed them.
It actually seems to be the fad right now. Look at Harry Potter, Eragon, the Baudeliares, Frodo, ect.Don't forget, Frodo was around back in the '50s, he ain't new. So that means, neither is the "fad".

shadowmoon
February 3rd, 2005, 03:51 PM
Frodo was around back in the '50s, he ain't new. So that means, neither is the "fad".
I think he/she means stuff thats popular now

Ringmaster
February 4th, 2005, 09:39 AM
I think he/she means stuff thats popular now
Just to clarify this Lonna is a he.

rowanoak
February 4th, 2005, 03:49 PM
What I think made Martin great is that eventually he was able to emotioially get pasted the tragies in his life, move on, and accomplish something that benefited his world greatly (the building of Redwall Abbey). Another thing that I have noticed that often Martin's "choices"(for lack of a better word) to be a warrior are creatures that have had simliar experiences that he did; like Matthias, who became of orphan at an early age. The reason for this is probably because not only can the creature fit the Abbey's need, but also because Martin could relate and have sympathy for that creature.

Madd The Sane
February 4th, 2005, 04:45 PM
Tim ballisto died young didn't he?
depends on what book you read and which book you believe. In one book TB lived to have children, but in Legend of Luke, it seems that he didn't live that long at all.

Ringmaster
February 7th, 2005, 06:57 PM
Timballisto died the winter after the Mossflower war it said so in the Ledgend of Luke :confused: at least I think so

Jason Caits-Cheverst
February 8th, 2005, 10:48 PM
Doesn't it say at the end of the Long Patrol that Martin never again picked up a sword for as long as he lived? As I recall, his journey to the ship was simply to resolve what he did not know of his father and to therefore complete his identity as a warrior. As soon as he knew what had happened, he felt no further need to fight.


EXTRA: Yeah, Delia just gave me a hand. Germaine writes the epilogue for The Legend of Luke and states that he gave up his sword and lived a life of peace, and that he had the hawk in the book tie the sword to the weathervane.

So in Brian Jacques' Redwall, there was no more fighting for Martin. He came to internal peace with the knowledge of his father's fate, and that was that.

shadowmoon
February 8th, 2005, 11:09 PM
Just to clarify this Lonna is a he.
thank you

.What I think made Martin great is that eventually he was able to emotioially get pasted the tragies in his life, move on, and accomplish something that benefited his world greatly (the building of Redwall Abbey). Another thing that I have noticed that often Martin's "choices"(for lack of a better word) to be a warrior are creatures that have had simliar experiences that he did; like Matthias, who became of orphan at an early age. The reason for this is probably because not only can the creature fit the Abbey's need, but also because Martin could relate and have sympathy for that creature.
Hear! Hear! But like Martin it's usually then orphans who hav the spirit enough to fight the bad guys :)

LordTBT
February 9th, 2005, 01:07 AM
So in Brian Jacques' Redwall, there was no more fighting for Martin. He came to internal peace with the knowledge of his father's fate, and that was that.

I'm still inclined to say no way dude. Germaine was ancient, she could've kicked the bucket, and Martin may have needed the sword again and she would have no way of knowing.

Ferahgo the Assassin
February 9th, 2005, 06:22 AM
I imagine that Martin decided to lay down his sword pending the fact that he would no longer have a need for it. After he made that decision, if vermin showed up at the abbey there's no way he's sit back and let the otters and squirrels deal with it. He'd be right back in the fray again.

Cheesethief
February 9th, 2005, 02:23 PM
Maybe we can assume that after The Legend of Luke there was a sterile generation of vermin, meaning no invaders for a while. :/

shadowmoon
February 9th, 2005, 03:50 PM
yeah usually vermin attacks come decades afterwards.
between martin and dandin for instance was a long time*. there are some exceptions though.
remember when dandin was yearning for battle? he was gonf's grandson or greatgrandson or something like that.

Jason Caits-Cheverst
February 9th, 2005, 04:41 PM
I imagine that Martin decided to lay down his sword pending the fact that he would no longer have a need for it. After he made that decision, if vermin showed up at the abbey there's no way he's sit back and let the otters and squirrels deal with it. He'd be right back in the fray again.If that happened, then that's true. However, doesn't it say early on in Mariel of Redwall that Redwall hadn't seen vermin action since its construction?

I'm flailing around here, but I'm pretty sure that in the books, Brian deliberately sealed off any possibility of Martin coming back for another tale.

**shrug** I'll do some research, but I think that's the case.

LordTBT
February 9th, 2005, 09:04 PM
Brian deliberately sealed off any possibility of Martin coming back for another tale.

Well he may have, but I'm taking it with a grain of salt

Candied Chesnut
February 13th, 2005, 12:16 AM
i find it extremely hard to picture martin living a life of permenant peace. yes, he could have a few seasons of peace, but the mouse was a born warrior for crying out loud! He survived so many hardships in life and just kept going, and then, bam! he goes to the northlands, finds out the truth about his father, and no more martin the warrior! its just too sudden.

Cheesethief
February 13th, 2005, 12:35 PM
Well, he did found an abbey. And he was getting on in years by the time The Legend of Luke came about.

Ferahgo the Assassin
February 13th, 2005, 03:19 PM
I think that by the time the events of Legend of Luke transpired, Martin was starting to get on in seasons and was probably approaching the upper end of middle-aged. After he returned, it's safe to assume that he never encountered another vermin, and Redwall's construction was completed in peace. He was able to grow old peacefully and didn't want to go out of his way to look for vermin, and so thus never again picked up his sword.

Of course, as TBT said, it's possible that he picked up the sword again after Germaine died, and we'd have no way of knowing. I, however, think that the chances are slim-to-nonexistent that we will ever see Martin play an active role in another Redwall book.

shadowmoon
February 13th, 2005, 03:43 PM
i find it extremely hard to picture martin living a life of permenant peace. yes, he could have a few seasons of peace, but the mouse was a born warrior for crying out loud! He survived so many hardships in life and just kept going, and then, bam! he goes to the northlands, finds out the truth about his father, and no more martin the warrior! its just too sudden.
he was kinda like, middle aged. and there was like, peace so he didnt hav to fight. he only wanted to find the truth bout his father cuz trimp sang that song