View Full Version : The Wildcats: A grey species?

January 25th, 2003, 01:34 PM
This has been something I've been wondering for a long time...
I know BJ has said he has not touched upon grey characters /species,
but still, theres an equal amount of good/bad kitties......

Think about it. The good: Gingivere, Sandingomm, And Squire Julian Gingivere.

Then theres the bad: Tsarmina, Ungatt Trunn and King Mortspear ( there hasn't been a book about 'ol Morty, but we can assume hes' bad)

Theres only one I'm not sure about and thats Verdauga. Hes not completely good, nor does he seem to be completely bad. definetly not as evil as Tsarmina. I mean, he let Martin off easily, and the woodlanders where able to come and go as they please.

So, whadya think? Are wildcats a "grey species", meaning some can be good and some bad, or is this all just a coincidence?

Discuss, discuss!:cool:

The Red Badger
January 25th, 2003, 02:09 PM
Me, I think that, in general, wildcats are meant to be vermin and the counter to badgers. There's no doubt in my mind that Verdauga was meant to be bad. . . he invaded Mossflower, demanded servitude, killed (or had killed) Barkstripe, and so forth. Gingivere, Sandingomm, and the Squire were the exceptions, just as Blaggut, etc. were, not the rule.

Was Sandingomm ever stated to be a WILDcat? If not, one could argue she was simply a marmalade cat, explaining the Squire's description.

The ambiguity of the species stems for their relative disuse. Since, if a wildcat is used in the future, it's far more likely to be a villain, I think classifying them as vermin is justified.

Until then, this is as close to a "gray" species as we're likely to get, unless wolves finally appear without any allegiance.

January 25th, 2003, 02:48 PM
Wolves! I remember when some people mentioned how the sparrows seemed to disappear from the series, and somebody then mentioned that so did the wildcats, until Lord Brocktree.

Even though wildcats lean more to the vermin side, few of them ever appear in the series, and some of them are good.... Well, Gingevere, Sandingomm, and Squire JG are all related, so that might also say something... Maybe goodness runs in the blood?

January 25th, 2003, 02:54 PM
A marmalade cat like Julian wasn't really a wildcat, y'know. It was the first book, nothing set in stone, he sounded like a domestic cat to me.
I think Sandingomm was meant to be a wildcat , an entirely diffrent creature. To me, Gingivere, Tsarmina, Verdauga and all the other kitties were the same animal.
The rebellion was put down by both Verdauga and Tsarmina, who knows which one killed Barkstripe? Verdauga killed woodlanders because they tried to kill him, and even though he literally took over Mossflower (not nice), he generally treated his subjects well. Tsar would be an exception. Now she was bad to the bone.
If you count Mortspear (who never got a story), there are 3 good cats and 3 bad cats. That leaves Verdauga, who I would call neutral.
An' dats all I got to say about dat.

Lord Servone
January 26th, 2003, 12:55 AM
I thought the Squire was just a regular cat, not a wildcat....

Anyway, I agree with wildcat's being meant to be vermin, a counter to the badgers... just like there are good vermin, there are good wildcats as well, though, for the most part, they are supposed to be evil...

Verdauga... he must have been evil...if he wasn't why would the woodlanders want him out, besides the fact they don't want to be in a dictatorship? I think his act of mercy towards Martin was due to his sickness, or the fact that he wasn't 100% evil...if what I said makes any sense (tired) :P

January 26th, 2003, 12:41 PM
Well.... Maybe he was a bit like Romsca, because I think she was still a bit evil, but had a kind heart for whatever reason....

January 26th, 2003, 02:17 PM
I think wildcats are vermin in the redwall books but like all vermin they can be good or bad. (theres been a couple good'uns in the series right?) In my opinon Verdauga was bad, he had the whole mossflower in his mercy..he was a dictator. His mercy to martin was probably because he of his sickness or maybe he did have a little bit good in him, who knows except b.j. Gingivere on the other hand was a kind creature and so was his descendant Squire Julian Gingivere. So really it just depends i guess :/

who is Sandingomm btw? i don't renember

January 26th, 2003, 04:13 PM
When Gingivere went away , he met Sandingomm and became a farmer. Abbess Germaine and Ferdy and Coggs stayed there awhile.

Thats what I'm saying about Verdauga- he was bad but not 100% bad. At least not from what I know.

And anyway, Good or bad, Verdauga is one cool kitty.:cool:
He'll always be one of my favorite characters.

January 26th, 2003, 11:38 PM
And anyway, Good or bad, Verdauga is one cool kitty.
That's true, but it would be a lot kewler if they put panthers in the books, black ones esspecially.

January 27th, 2003, 12:13 PM
When Gingivere went away , he met Sandingomm

oh now i renember Sandingomm. I really need to reread mossflower :rolleyes:

January 27th, 2003, 01:53 PM
A black panther is just a melanistic jaguar, or was it a leopard? But...in Redwall? Nooo!
I think wildcats are halfn'half, some good some bad. But then there's always Veil and Romsca.

Slagar the Cruel
January 27th, 2003, 07:42 PM
I think that wildcats are meant to be generally evil, although I'm not sure good Wildcats are supposed to be altogether unusual, either. Take Sandingomm. She's undeniably good, but this is never referred to as unusual, nor is any real reason given. If a good rat turned up in such a manner, an explanation would probably have been given to the woodlanders/reader, if only fleetingly. This may have been because wildcats had just been established in that particular book (as opposed to the introduction of rats in Redwall). Still, there's only been one other book containing wildcats so far, so we can't just discount this early impression of Wildcats for being "outdated".

I don't think Verdauga was a "good" character by any means, but I don't think he was altogether evil, either. He didn't seem to exhibit any cruelty towards his subjects, but for the most part he disregarded their needs, keeping the vermin interests in higher regards. In other words, he wouldn't enslave them or kill them without a good reason, but he'd overtax them and crush any rebellions. If Verdauga was irredeemably evil, and his illness was all that was holding his ruthlessness back, I doubt that Gingivere would've gone along with his rulings (I don't believe Gingivere ever recalled his father with distaste). Furthermore, I doubt Tsarmina would be quite so anxious to murder him, nor the Woodlanders quite so upset about the impending shift in power.

That's true, but it would be a lot kewler if they put panthers in the books, black ones esspecially.Ugh! Please say you're joking...

January 27th, 2003, 09:15 PM
Ugh! Please say you're joking...
I am, would you REALLY like to see black panthers in the books?

January 31st, 2003, 07:44 PM
Pnathers are cool, but they would be good if redwall was in a jungelish type place.

January 31st, 2003, 08:07 PM
dark please change the pic in your signature to a .jpg or a .gif ...bmps take to long to load and its slowing down the page :(