Horcruxes?

[Ember Nickel]

Will the Horcruxes turn #7 into a stupid treasure hunt? I'm afraid so. They remind me of MacGuffins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macguffin).

[Bladeswift]

Except this treasure hunt will actually have a relevance to the story.

[Jodan]

Yeah. Probably the first half of the book will be Horcrux hunting, along with Ron and Hermione, and when all that is left of Voldemort's soul is trapped within his reborn body Harry will find him and the final duel will ensue. I'm guessing they will both die in the end.

[Furrtil]

Interesting Horcrux theory I found. Taken from http://blog.qiken.org/archives/2005/07/harry_potter_th.html#comments which is a blog by Heidi Bond, law student at University of Michigan (yay!) Mr. Evil = Snape. Mr. Good= Dumbledore. S= Slytherin, H=Hufflepuff etc.

Of course, this all begs the question of why Mr. Evil is more central to Harry's success than Mr. Good. And this, of course, is all about the Horcruxes. There are six of them -- two have already been destroyed. Maybe three, depending on what R.A.B. did with the one he grabbed. And we know of three definite others: S's token, H's token, and snakey. Dumbledore postulates that there's one othere out there -- maybe something from R, or, less likely, G?

Dumbledore, of course, is stretching the truth again. We all know what the missing Horcrux is. It wasn't another medallion or ring. It may have been intended to be a medallion or a ring, but when Voldemort attempted to make the last Horcrux by killing Harry, and when Lily intervened, the spell backfired. Voldemort made a Horcrux, all right -- but the Horcrux is (obviously) Harry. This explains Harry's connection with Voldemort, Harry's Parselmouth powers, Harry's affinity to Voldy's wand, and so forth.

And it also explains the prophecy -- "neither can live while the other survives." You think the Other Minister's lengthy, babbling musings about whether Voldemort is really alive are just there for fun? Ha!

It also explains why Mr. Evil is needed. My guess is he is the only other person who knows that Harry is a Horcrux. He's going to have to be there to goad Lord V. into destroying that part of himself at the end. Mr. Good couldn't do that, and until it's gone, Voldy can't be killed.

How JKR will manage the destruction of the Horcrux without killing Harry, I don't know.

Quite an interesting read, I suggest you check out the whole thing. She's got some pretty cool theories, whether you agree with them or not.

[LordTBT]

It's all interesting.

Some a bit far-fetched.

Now, I'm fairly sure both Harry and V-man will die at the end of Book 7. This will allow for a completion of the series, and no postulation of what happens to Harry afterwards.

It wouldn't surprise me at least.

However Snape isn't evil at all. There is more to him than Rowling has told us. The author just seems a bit p.o.ed that Snape killed Dumbledore. Big whoop.

Regulus is dead. He even says so:
"I know I will be long dead before you read this"

How do you think he got the horcrux'ed locket? He had to drink the potion didn't he?

Since the book is so long it's hard for me to scan through and find exact page references, but aren't Snape and Dumbledore in the midst of an argument that Hagrid overhears?

That was obviously Dumbledore instructing Snape to kill him.

I don't like this "Harry is the last Horcrux theory", but I won't rule it out.

I think that's stupid. The spell used on him was the killing curse, not some horcrux-making one.

[Furrtil]

Well, (I could be wrong, feel free to correct me) but I don't think there were any witnesses to recall that a killing spell was actually used against Harry...

Edit: Although I gotta admit that Harry as Horcrux is ver farfetched. It's very risky to make a Horcrux in a person.

[Jodan]

The Avada Kedavra was attempted, but Lily's sacrifice gave him a shield that Voldemort couldn't penetrate. Harry can't be a Horcrux, Voldemort tried to kill him.

[Lyrian Aryns]

The thing is, we don't know how precisely one would go about making a Horcrux. There's obviously some kind of preparation involved else every time a person killed they'd be making one. So until we know, I don't think we can say for sure that Harry being the Horcrux is necessarily impossible.

Oh, and here's something kind of interesting from page 332 of Chamber of Secrets: "You can speak Parseltongue, Harry," said Dumbledore calmly, "because Lord Voldemort -- who is the last remaing ancestor of Salazar Slytherin -- can speak Parseltongue. Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he gave you that scar."

[Whee, I certainly hope they have it as 'descendent' in later revisions...]

[LordTBT]

Hahaha. This is where it proves the editors let Rowling write what she wants because they know it'll sell like crazy.

The thing is, we don't know how precisely one would go about making a Horcrux

Horcruxio! ;)

[Jodan]

Look, we know Voldemort tried to kill Harry, heard it even from Voldemort himself. If he wanted Harry to be a living Horcrux, he wouldn't have tried to kill him, losing his power in the process. Harry can't be a Horcrux for that reason.

[Lyrian Aryns]

We're not saying Voldemort wanted Harry to be a Horcrux. We're saying that Voldemort wanted to use Harry's death to make his last Horcrux, but his plan went awry when Harry didn't die from the Avada Kedavra.

[Jodan]

Ah, ok, my mistake. That makes sense, but does he really need Harry's death specifically to make his Horcrux? Perhaps....

[LordTBT]

We're not saying Voldemort wanted Harry to be a Horcrux. We're saying that Voldemort wanted to use Harry's death to make his last Horcrux, but his plan went awry when Harry didn't die from the Avada Kedavra.

That's still flawed to me. According to Book 6, a horcrux must be

A) An object(like a locket)

or

B) A living creature (like the snake)

How is Harry's dead body supposed to be a Horcrux?

[Jodan]

No, she was saying that Harry's death would be used to split part of Voldemort's soul into whatever the horcrux will be.

[LordTBT]

No, she was saying that Harry's death would be used to split part of Voldemort's soul into whatever the horcrux will be.

Oh his murder. Still makes no sense, cause Voldemort killed James and Lily. There's 2 deaths.

[Lyrian Aryns]

It's all in a paragraph near the bottom of page 506: he only made his horcruxes with significant murders. So no, Voldemort didn't technically need Harry to die, but that's who he wanted to use.

[Lonna Bowstripe]

It is my personal opinion that Voldemort is going to die at the end of book 7, but not Harry. It just seems right for a cheesy ending. I'll state a few facts here.

This next point was brought up in a discussion of killing off main Redwall characters—let me see if I can find it—nope, I can't. (If someone remembers what thread this was in, please post it.)
There are two types of readers. "Realistic" readers, generally older and more mature readers, who tend to read more "life-like" books, where favorite characters die, tragedies happen, etc. Then there are, for lack of a better word, "fantasy" readers. Fantasy readers are generally younger and less mature, who prefer books with a "happily ever after" ending. No one haggle me about steriotyping, as there are exceptions, but for now let us assume "realistic" readers are older—middle to late teens to adulthood—, and "fantasy" readers are younger. While Harry Potter is enjoyed by both types of readers, there is no doubt that it is aimed at the younger generation. (Book 6 may be an exception, with all the "snogging", but then again, people seem to be dating younger and younger, so who knows?) That aside, all the little kids who dress up as Harry and scram to the bookstores at midnight, way past their bedtime, will be affected if Harry is killed off. And I don't think JK will want to risk losing so many fans. But again, just my opinion.

(Forgive me for my long sentences and mistakes, grammer never was my best subject.) :p

[LordTBT]

And I don't think JK will want to risk losing so many fans. But again, just my opinion.


It won't matter. This is the last HP book, and people will have already stormed the bookstores and put more money into her pocket.

[Ferahgo the Assassin]

I think that there is a very good chance that Harry will die at the end of book 7 (along with Voldemort). I've predicted from the beginning that one of the main three would die at the end. Throughout most of the series I had thought it was going to be Ron. Now, though, I'm thinking more that it will be Harry. The prophecy, along with other small hints along the way, leads me to believe this is a good possibility.

[Lyrian Aryns]

Huh... to entirely switch gears here, I was poking around on somebody's livejournal earlier today and I found something that I think bears repeating: on page 116 of OotP, Sirius, Harry and the Weasleys are cleaning out some cabinets in number twelve, Grimmauld Place when they find a "heavy locket that none of them could open." So I'm thinking maybe Regulus stole the thing, but he died (of the potion?) before he could destroy it, and Voldemort left the horcrux with the Blacks much like he left the diary with the Malfoys.

I'm not at all sure of this one yet, but it does give some possible evidence for RAB being Regulus at least.

[Ferahgo the Assassin]

That is a good point. Do you think it's possible that Mundungus could've stolen the Horcrux when he was robbing the Black place? His mention in the story seemed a little random, but maybe not so much... just a thought.

[Martin the Warrior]

::gives Lyrian a cookie:: I think you just found a conclusive bit of evidence. ;) Great eye. Rowling did say in an interview on Mugglenet (http://www.mugglenet.com/jkrinterview2.shtml) that there were things about R.A.B. readers could deduce upon further readings. I think you found the big one. ;)

However, I don't think Voldemort knew the locket had been stolen and thus it was never entrusted to the Blacks. The diary was only entrusted to Malfoy because Voldemort wanted it to get back into Hogwarts and be used... nothing about the locket suggests it had a similar purpose (and without it, I doubt Voldemort would entrust part of his soul to anyone).

That is a good point. Do you think it's possible that Mundungus could've stolen the Horcrux when he was robbing the Black place? His mention in the story seemed a little random, but maybe not so much... just a thought.

Another nice catch. Taken together, I think you two have figured out the course the R.A.B. plotthread will take. ;)

[Bladeswift]

Way to go you two, you've practically spoiled the book before it was even published.

[Fenglaz the Cannibal]

Has anyone read the Wall of Shame on Mugglenet? Raise paws!

[Jodan]

I'm still not entirely convinced that RAB is Regalus, but this locket theory makes me a little more receptive to the idea.

[KitsuneRose]

It's all in a paragraph near the bottom of page 506: he only made his horcruxes with significant murders. So no, Voldemort didn't technically need Harry to die, but that's who he wanted to use.
I wonder if perhaps Voldemort's soul did split when he tried to kill Harry, as the curse hit him; it just rebounded. I stick to my theory that Harry is a descendent of Gryffindor, so perhaps something in Godric's Hollow belonged at some point to Gryffindor, and that became a Horcrux. We know Harry is planning to visit Godric's Hollow in book 7, so perhaps he will find something there.

I just can't buy the theory that Harry is a Horcrux, as Voldemort had such a hard time possessing him in OotP. Had he (Harry) been a Horcrux, part of Voldemort's soul, why would he (Voldemort) be unable to remain in Harry's body for an extended period?

[LordTBT]

I thought the "heir of Gryffindor" theory is hogwash.

Good thing JKR agrees with me:

MA: What about Harry's family — his grandparents — were they killed?

JKR: No. This takes us into more mundane territory. As a writer, it was more interesting, plot-wise, if Harry was completely alone. So I rather ruthlessly disposed of his entire family apart from Aunt Petunia. I mean, James and Lily are massively important to the plot, of course, but the grandparents? No. And, because I do like my backstory: Petunia and Lily's parents, normal Muggle death. James's parents were elderly, were getting on a little when he was born, which explains the only child, very pampered, had-him-late-in-life-so-he's-an-extra-treasure, as often happens, I think. They were old in wizarding terms, and they died. They succumbed to a wizarding illness. That's as far as it goes. There's nothing serious or sinister about those deaths. I just needed them out of the way so I killed them.

MA: That sort of shuts down Heir of Gryffindor [theories], as well.

JKR: [Pause.] Yeah. Well - yeah.

[Bladeswift]

Actually, that pause in her response makes one more inclined to believe he is the heir of Gryffindor.

[Jodan]

How does not having anything interesting happen to Harry's family (excluding James and Lily) shut down that theory? Tracing a person's lineage back 1000 years is impossible. The mists of time obscure the truth.

Like I said in the thread I posted that theory in, it doesn't really affect anything in the grand scheme. It's just an interesting point to speculate on. If we do ever discover the truth, people aren't going to be crying over it if it's not what they wanted to hear.

[Martin the Warrior]

Harry as Godric Gryffindor's descendant has been a popular theory since Chamber of Secrets, if not before-- and has been denied by Rowling in the past (and essentially again in the interview excerpt TBT posted).

One of the themes she's been tackling is that our choices are what defines us and moves the cogs of fate. Another (virtually any time "mudblood" is brought up) is that it is not one's lineage that determines greatness and/or worth. I doubt she'd turn back on all that for a Heir of Gryffindor vs. Heir of Slytherin title bout... it's not about that.

Well, that and her denial. ;)

[KitsuneRose]

Actually, that pause in her response makes one more inclined to believe he is the heir of Gryffindor.
That was my interpretation when I read the interview. She can't exactly come out and say that he is, as that would be spoiling the book. Then again, my whole theory ties into the fact that he is, so there ya go.

One of the themes she's been tackling is that our choices are what defines us and moves the cogs of fate. Another (virtually any time "mudblood" is brought up) is that it is not one's lineage that determines greatness and/or worth. I doubt she'd turn back on all that for a Heir of Gryffindor vs. Heir of Slytherin title bout... it's not about that.
I agree that has been a theme. However, Harry has been going through his whole life as is without thinking he's the heir of Gryffindor, so even if he found out he was in the 7th book, I doubt it would make that much of a difference. It just might give the final battle a bit more intrigue. We've already seen that Harry has proven himself time and time again, and we don't know who his ancestors are. I think it would just make an interesting plot point (again, my theory on Horcruxes revolves around this), but not define the battle.

[Martin the Warrior]

That was my interpretation when I read the interview. She can't exactly come out and say that he is, as that would be spoiling the book.

My interpretation was that she was pausing to consider whether or not it was one of the theories she wanted to put the kibosh on (ultimately settling on "Yes"). She pointed out in the interview that she'd never misled anyone, and saying "He's not" when "He is" would definitely go against that. Besides, if you don't want to confirm or deny something, there's always "No comment" (which you'll note she did use frequently) or Robert Jordan's staple "RAFO" (read and find out).

I agree that has been a theme. However, Harry has been going through his whole life as is without thinking he's the heir of Gryffindor, so even if he found out he was in the 7th book, I doubt it would make that much of a difference.

Ah, but it would. When the point is that our choices matter, not our blood, to give him "significant" blood at the end invalidates it. Did he make the right choices on his own or did he make the right choices because he was the Heir of Gryffindor? It's not a dynamic that actually works, in the end, and given Rowling's denial of it over the years, I doubt it's in the works.

[LordTBT]

After 7 books, it's all about a feud from times past?

That's a horrible way to go out if you ask me.

I don't buy it either.

[Cheesethief]

On the locket issue: If Mundungus stole the locket along with the other Black heirlooms, could this mean that he sold it to Dumbledore's brother? Harry recognised the man talking to Mundungus in Hogsmeade as "The bartender from the...Hog's Head" (In GoF, we are told that Aberforth was "prosecuted for practising inappropriate charms on a goat". The Hog's Head smells of goats, and the bartender is tall and thin, and looked "vaguely familiar" to Harry.) Also, when Harry approaches Mundungus, the bartender walks off and pulls "his cloak tighter around his neck". Not himself, his neck. I thought that was interesting, anyway.

What are the powers of the locket, anyway? Hepzibah Smith* states the locket has "all sorts of powers attributed to it" and we know that Merope's magic power was lessened while she was around her family.

* Maybe you noticed this, but Hepzibah is definitely a relative of Zacharias Smith. Both have a connection with Hufflepuff, both have weird first names, and the surname Smith. Could be something there.

[LordTBT]

If Mundungus stole the locket along with the other Black heirlooms, could this mean that he sold it to Dumbledore's brother? Harry recognised the man talking to Mundungus in Hogsmeade as "The bartender from the...Hog's Head" (In GoF, we are told that Aberforth was "prosecuted for practising inappropriate charms on a goat". The Hog's Head smells of goats, and the bartender is tall and thin, and looked "vaguely familiar" to Harry.)

I think the theory that the bartender is Dumbledore's brother is crackpot as well.

[Lyrian Aryns]

Why is the barman of the Hog’s Head vaguely familiar to Harry? Is he Dumbledore’s brother?

Ooh—you are getting good. Why do you think that it is Aberforth? [Audience member: Various clues. He smells of goats and he looks a bit like Dumbledore]. I was quite proud of that clue. That is all that I am going to say. [Laughter]. Well yes, obviously. I like the goat clue—I sniggered to myself about that one.
http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/news_view.cfm?id=80

[LordTBT]

All I can say is, we'll see.

He's had no significance the first 6 books. Giving him special treatment in book 7 seems out of place.

Also, this interview is interesting.

I've caught Rowling either lying or being misleading, something she claims to never have done.

"Snape’s ancestry is hinted at. He was a Death Eater, so clearly he is no Muggle born"

As we find out by the end of book 6, he is part-muggle born.

[Bladeswift]

"Snape’s ancestry is hinted at. He was a Death Eater, so clearly he is no Muggle born"

As we find out by the end of book 6, he is part-muggle born.
You said it yourself, he was part-muggle born. If you assumed that meant he couldn't be part-muggle born that's not Rowling's problem.

[LordTBT]

You said it yourself, he was part-muggle born. If you assumed that meant he couldn't be part-muggle born that's not Rowling's problem.

She said no Muggle-born. That means no Muggle blood is in his line. There is no other way to interpret that statement.

[Bladeswift]

Muggle born implies having parents that are both Muggle born.

[LordTBT]

Muggle born implies having parents that are both Muggle born.

I disagree. Muggle-born implies having Muggle blood in the line.

[Rolinko]

In GoF, we are told that Aberforth was "prosecuted for practising inappropriate charms on a goat". The Hog's Head smells of goats, and the bartender is tall and thin, and looked "vaguely familiar" to Harry.So was there ever a moment in the series in which Harry saw a picture of Aberforth Dumbledore?

[Lyrian Aryns]

So was there ever a moment in the series in which Harry saw a picture of Aberforth Dumbledore?There's some family resemblance there, probably.

[Rolinko]

Ahh. "I see," said the blind man.

[Martin the Warrior]

So was there ever a moment in the series in which Harry saw a picture of Aberforth Dumbledore?
In Order of the Phoenix, Mad Eye Moody shows Harry a picture of the old Order and points out Aberforth. So, yes.