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View Full Version : Massive Flaw in Redwall Books



Josiah the Warrior
September 8th, 2005, 04:16 PM
Has anyone ever noticed how the budding warriors (Matthias, Tammo, Arven and etc) will pick up Martins sword (or any weapon for that matter) with no training whatsoever and not only be profficient but skilled enough to slay seasoned vermin warriors with relative ease. On top of magically having a 3 second crash course on how to be a sword master, they develop inventive battle plans and war strategies with similar lack of knowledge and training. I can understand some natural skill, but your average army weasel should be able to take out a younger, weaker beast who just touched a weapon for the first time in his life, and a warlord with dozens of bloodly campaigns under his belt should easily be able to outthink a beast who's never even seen a battle. It's just too annoyinly unexplained. Does anyone else agree?

Bladeswift
September 8th, 2005, 04:33 PM
Hence why I voted for Tam lol.

It has always annoyed me that amateurs such as Matthias are able to not only go head to head with experienced fighters such as Cluny, but also win. I can understand why this is so, however, considering it is only a children's book.


On top of magically having a 3 second crash course on how to be a sword master, they develop inventive battle plans and war strategies with similar lack of knowledge and training.
I would like to point out that although the plans formed throughout the series (by both good guys and vermin alike) appear to be well formed, there is actually little strategy explained. If I were to give my ROTC instructor the same battle plans used in Cluny's campaign aganinst Redwall, he would laugh himself silly.

Ember Nickel
September 8th, 2005, 04:40 PM
Yes, I agree, but I'm willing to sacrifice plot inconsistencies like that for a fun book where I'm confident that good will triumph over evil.
...considering this is only a children's book.So we are all children, or immature readers?

Josiah the Warrior
September 8th, 2005, 04:52 PM
I would like to point out that although the plans formed throughout the series (by both good guys and vermin alike) appear to be well formed, there is actually little strategy explained. If I were to give my ROTC instructor the same battle plans used in Cluny's campaign aganinst Redwall, he would laugh himself silly.
Very true. I guess it's more the fact that amateurs are making plans of the same caliber of experianced campaigners, regardless of how good they actually are.

book where I'm confident that good will triumph over evil.
That is nice sometimes, but often I am extrememly dissapointed (though not surprised) when vermin lose, namely Ferahgo, Ungatt Trunn, and especially Tsarmina. I wish she would have killed Martin so badly.

So we are all children, or immature readers?
Talk about beating a dead horse. :p
But really, let's try to put this to rest once and for all. Yes Redwall is meant to be a childrens series, but it is written in such a way that readers of many ages can still derive pleasure from reading them. I don't care what anyone says, I'll be buried in High Rhulain come September 22nd. ;)

Bladeswift
September 8th, 2005, 04:55 PM
So we are all children, or immature readers?
It's meant for children, therefore the content is, for want of a better word, "dumbed down" for children. That doesn't mean children are the only ones who can read it.

Barkstripe
September 8th, 2005, 05:36 PM
Has anyone ever noticed how the budding warriors (Matthias, Tammo, Arven and etc) will pick up Martins sword (or any weapon for that matter) with no training whatsoever and not only be profficient but skilled enough to slay seasoned vermin warriors with relative ease. On top of magically having a 3 second crash course on how to be a sword master, they develop inventive battle plans and war strategies with similar lack of knowledge and training. I can understand some natural skill, but your average army weasel should be able to take out a younger, weaker beast who just touched a weapon for the first time in his life, and a warlord with dozens of bloodly campaigns under his belt should easily be able to outthink a beast who's never even seen a battle. It's just too annoyinly unexplained. Does anyone else agree?
Martins Warrior spirit goes in them.

Shadow's Forge
September 8th, 2005, 05:57 PM
Perhaps the Sword of Martin has magical properties allowing the dead mouse to pass on his fighting knowledge.

Ferahgo the Assassin
September 8th, 2005, 06:51 PM
I actually think Barkstipe has a good point. Can any of you think of an awesomely skilled young beast that wasn't influenced by Martin's spirit in some way? I'm not saying that there aren't any, but right now I cannot think of one off the top of my head.

I don't think Tammo fits the bill, though. He was a hare and would've had some military knowledge from his father, his siblings, and other hares at Tussock. Moreover, he was not an immediately skilled beast. He certainly would've died several times if not for Russa and later the Long Patrol.

Ember Nickel
September 8th, 2005, 06:53 PM
Can any of you think of an awesomely skilled young beast that wasn't influenced by Martin's spirit in some way? Can I use Martin himself? Do Brocktree or Sunflash count as young? Are Grath's skills awesome?

Badrang3
September 8th, 2005, 07:15 PM
I think he meant creatures who are from the Abbey and become heroes.

Agravaine
September 8th, 2005, 07:52 PM
I should do a fanfic that's Redwall, but in the style of George R. R. Martin's ASoIaF. That would be... sheer awesomeness... and if the sheer idiocy of the generic Redwaller was kept... Ah man. So much blood. And a Killconey point of view would be fun.

Ferahgo the Assassin
September 8th, 2005, 08:34 PM
Can I use Martin himself? Do Brocktree or Sunflash count as young? Are Grath's skills awesome?
Good point, but I think that we can all agree that Martin was a true genius of warfare. They do exist, and of course their stories will be more interesting. (Maybe it's just that the stories of the ubiquitous talent-less creatures don't get told.) As for Brocktree and Sunflash, they were badgers, and I think in Redwall-land there exists an actual gene for warfare in badgers. :p As for Grath, she's a possible but not probable exception - otters are also notoriously warlike and she had a lot more incentive than most to become a skilled warrior.

And yeah, I was mostly referring to Abbeybeasts.

Chosha
September 10th, 2005, 02:28 AM
Can any of you think of an awesomely skilled young beast that wasn't influenced by Martin's spirit in some way?

We never know about Mattimeo (Ooh, a rhyme!). He grew from a spoiled brat to a warrior (well, at least having a warrior's spirit) without the help of Martin. We never knew about his days as Abbey Champion and if he weilded the sword in a war or not, so...maybe.

Meetevae
September 10th, 2005, 01:09 PM
Notice how Matthias kept recovering almost immediately from being almost dead on more than one occasion in Redwall as did Chickenhound and Mr Fieldmouse.

Badrang3
September 10th, 2005, 03:40 PM
That is nice sometimes, but often I am extrememly dissapointed (though not surprised) when vermin lose, namely Ferahgo, Ungatt Trunn, and especially Tsarmina.




But they do win most of the time. It's just that their victories are short lived.

Josiah the Warrior
September 10th, 2005, 05:59 PM
But they do win most of the time. It's just that their victories are short lived.
Eh. Cluny, and perhaps one or two armies to invade Salamandastron, but that's it, so I dunno about most of the time, but I see your point nonetheless.

Badrang3
September 10th, 2005, 06:33 PM
Just for the heck of it, I'll throw out a couple of examples:

Urgan Nagru: His goal was to grab Southsward and does so. Essentially, he wins.

Ungatt Trunn: Also conquers Salamandastron at a very early stage.

Ferahgo: He does get in there

General Ironbeak: One of the more effecient wins.

Bladeswift
September 10th, 2005, 06:40 PM
You're somewhat right, yet somewhat wrong. Simply conquering the place is only a short term goal of theirs. Their long term goal is to conquer their objective, and to keep it under their power until they die of natural causes. They win the battle, but they always lose the war.

Alice in Mossflower
October 8th, 2007, 02:21 AM
Perhaps the Sword of Martin has magical properties allowing the dead mouse to pass on his fighting knowledge.

I must say I agree.

Also I would like to add that there is a lot of destiny in this saga(Not series saga. Series, piff.) And, like most destiny stories, if someone's (or somebeast's) destiny is to defend their home and their loved ones and all that they have ever known, they suddenly find themselves capable of extraordinary things that they would have never thought themselves able to do in anything but their craziest, most unatainable dreams. The adrenaline of the battle kicks in, and they can just... do. If someone is running for their life, they will run faster longer than normal. Same concept behind the Redwall Saga warriors.

Gorath the Flame
October 8th, 2007, 08:12 AM
I completely disagree, Matthias for example used to always imagined himself a warrior and that his staff was a sword, thus he became very skilled with a staff. But when he did get a sword there are signs that he's still an ametaur with it, considering he just madly swings it at Asmodeus. Also he couldn't of defeated Cluny without the huge bell hanging over Cluny's head, so Matthias beating Cluny was just the fact that Matthias had become quite the clever mouse growing up.

Badrang3
October 8th, 2007, 11:23 AM
Wow... old topic.

Still, since it's here, there's something I would like to say on the topic of people just picking up the sword and using it effectively: really, what is there to know that can be beyond the average Joe? Hit your enemy with the pointed bit, and try to block whenever he tries to stab you. Obviously, if they start whirring it around like a buzzsaw, then there's a problem, but there's not really that much to know just to hack at the other guy.

Fuzface
October 8th, 2007, 12:42 PM
I totally agree!! That has bugged me ever since I started with the series. It's unrealistic, and it jsut makes the series kinda Suckish.

Bladeswift
October 8th, 2007, 02:49 PM
Wow... old topic.

Still, since it's here, there's something I would like to say on the topic of people just picking up the sword and using it effectively: really, what is there to know that can be beyond the average Joe? Hit your enemy with the pointed bit, and try to block whenever he tries to stab you. Obviously, if they start whirring it around like a buzzsaw, then there's a problem, but there's not really that much to know just to hack at the other guy.
Talk with a fencer. :rolleyes:

Technique, agility, accuracy, balance, strength, it all matters.

Badrang3
October 8th, 2007, 03:26 PM
Talk with a fencer. :rolleyes:

Technique, agility, accuracy, balance, strength, it all matters.

I know, but given that this is based in a medivel period, the average soldier is not going to be trained to learn the art of fencing. Their main priority is to hit the enemy before the enemy hits you. To develop this sword swinging any further than a hack and slash concept would take forever, and I'm sure the average peasent wouldn't care enough to pursue it.

Besides, I don't think the fencer himself would be able to do any justice to his art in a battle where a screaming lunatic is hurling as massive axe at his head.

Bladeswift
October 8th, 2007, 04:18 PM
I know, but given that this is based in a medivel period, the average soldier is not going to be trained to learn the art of fencing. Their main priority is to hit the enemy before the enemy hits you. To develop this sword swinging any further than a hack and slash concept would take forever, and I'm sure the average peasent wouldn't care enough to pursue it.

Besides, I don't think the fencer himself would be able to do any justice to his art in a battle where a screaming lunatic is hurling as massive axe at his head.
Why do you think knights and mercenaries were more valuable? Because (along with better discipline) they knew how to kill. Same concept here, minus the horses.

Badrang3
October 8th, 2007, 04:25 PM
Why do you think knights and mercenaries were more valuable? Because (along with better discipline) they knew how to kill. Same concept here, minus the horses.

I don't dispute that having a trained knight who knew what they were doing would be valuable. But the fact is, many of the hordes give off the impression of conscripts who have been given a weapon, told to use it, and no more training was involved. It's like comparing the average French militia man to the Imperial Guard of the Grand Armee; obviously, you'd want the Imperial Gurad on your side, but sometimes all you can get is at the bottom of the barrel. Therefore, while you might have a group of elite troops, it's more likely that most of your forces are going consist of commoners, who have no real intrest in furthering their use of a weapon so long as the basic's further their ends.

Fuzface
October 11th, 2007, 11:41 AM
Talk with a fencer. :rolleyes:

Technique, agility, accuracy, balance, strength, it all matters.

I'm a fencer, and the first time I held a blade, I had no idea what I was doing. If it were a real duel, I would have been chopped to bits.