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Martin the Warrior
September 29th, 2003, 05:05 PM
I'm surprised nobody has anything up about it, yet.

Today the trailer for Return of the King is put up for download at http://www.apple.com/trailers/newline/returnoftheking/ It's roughly three minutes and contains a plethora of new scenes and pretty much spells out that the Elves will reforge Narsil and deliver it to Aragorn (will Arwen, as I originally predicted? We'll have to wait and see).

As far as trailers go, I don't think it's as well-edited as the original Fellowship one (which was absolutely incredible) or the final TTT one (the last 90 seconds of which was excellent). I would rewatch those simply because they were edited so well. The main draw with this one is to see new scenes. ;)

So, anyway, go download it.

I remain cautiously optimistic about ROTK and hope Jackson will regain some of the ground he lost (in my eyes) with TTT. If not... well, at least the first movie was great. ;)

Boar the Fighter
September 29th, 2003, 05:16 PM
Ah, well, we disagree again, Martin. My namesake and yours were good friends; we should be too! I LOVED the ROTK trailer I saw when I went to watch Secondhand Lions (great movie, by the way. For those of you who haven't gotten the memo, Haley Joel Osmont is THE MAN). The only ground Jackson lost in my eyes in TTT was the portrayal of Faramir as weak and susceptible to the Ring. In the book, he was so noble; Jackson turned him into a ????er. But the second movie was FANTASTIC! And I'm really looking forward to the third movie. I'm guessing that the reason you thought TTT wasn't as good was because you missed the Shelob scene...well, that's going to be in the third one. ROTK is by far the shortest book, and when making them into equal length movies, it was obvious that some of TTT would have to be put in the beginning of ROTK.

Random Trivia Bit: Tolkien had no idea WHICH two towers were being refered to in the title of the second book. His publishers said it had a nice ring, and he agreed. He finally decided that the towers were Orthanc and Minas Morgul. The moviemakers changed it to Orthanc and Barad-dur.

Martin the Warrior
September 29th, 2003, 05:48 PM
Boar
Ah, well, we disagree again, Martin.

It would appear so. Nothing wrong with that, of course. ;)


I LOVED the ROTK trailer I saw when I went to watch

I never said it wasn't a great trailer, just not as great as its predecessors. It was the music, I think. The March of the Ents at the beginning was good, but the latter half of the trailer needed something more dramatic like FOTR and TTT had.


I'm guessing that the reason you thought TTT wasn't as good was because you missed the Shelob scene...

Not entirely, no. My complaint stems from the fact that TTT was not treated with the same respect as FOTR and lacked the general air of nobility of the first. I detailed my complaints at the time and a forum search for "Two Towers" or "TTT" should yield the original talkback thread (started by Airemia), so I won't repeat them here. This thread is about ROTK. ;)


ROTK is by far the shortest book, and when making them into equal length movies, it was obvious that some of TTT would have to be put in the beginning of ROTK.

While it's the shortest (not counting the Appendices, of course), I wouldn't say "by far". ROTK is 311 pages in my copy (a single volume edition), TTT is only 352, while FOTR is 423.

Since FOTR covered its 423 pages plus the first chapter of TTT quite capably, arguing that a book only 41 pages shorter than its predecessor needs to borrow from that predecessor (thereby shortening it, as well) to match its length doesn't sound like a convincing argument. In my opinion, of course. ;)

I, personally, would have hoped Jackson would take the extra minutes he'd be given to really get into the characters, rather than "filling" minutes.

Boar the Fighter
September 29th, 2003, 05:55 PM
Much of ROTK is just the happy ending, so they can easily cut way down on that. Also, TTT is so jam-packed with STUFF. Helm's Deep is such can be such a cinematagraphic field day, and then there's all of that great Gollum character to develop...too much to do in under three hours. Especially when you waste time having Faramir take them all the way to Osigliath in that sequence that I found dumb. I guess it helped to develop the Ring as an evil force for those who didn't read the book and thus didn't get its power with Frodo's internal monologues. Also, it would be nice if you would state what you found wrong with TTT, its relevant to this thread. Anyways, I found TTT to be an excellent movie, every bit as entertaining as the first. I think the third will be the best of them all!

Airemia
September 29th, 2003, 07:20 PM
Heyyy, it's me! I'm not dead! W00t! :p All right, people...! I guess I'm going to have to explain the Faramir thing AGAIN!

First of all, if you read The Two Towers, most of Faramir's lines in the movie were taken from the book. Not much is different, actually. I even heard someone complaining that Faramir 'kidnapped' the hobbits...Uh, that was in the book too! Sheesh...

And anyway, what would you do if there was a huge war coming, and you were on the borders of Mordor, and you had never seen a hobbit before, and here came two of these crazy little guys with an even CRAZIER little guy heading straight into the realm of your enemy? I think I'd kidnap 'em too! For all Faramir knew, they WERE spies.

Well anyhow, here's my take on the whole part of Faramir's:

Faramir finds three crazy looking little guys wandering around in his land, seemingly headed towards Mordor. Obviously, he takes them in for questioning or whatever. You're not going to have a nice cup of tea with them and then send them on their way when they're most likely spies of Sauron.

Faramir is very very stressed out. What he really needs is to kick back with a coca cola and some Enya. Unfortunately, neither is to be found in Middle-earth. Basically the guy's thinking about too much at the same time.

So Faramir finds out that the Halflings have the one ring of power...! Well, isn't this a great opportunity! Mordor's got a HUGE army headed straight for them, bent on the destruction of the race of men, controlled by an ancient evil lidless eye, and it doesn't look like Gondor's going to stand much of a chance. But, if he takes the ring, maybe he can save his kingdom! Wow, great idea, right? Too bad he hasn't seen the ring in action, so he has no idea of its effect on people. He's desperate, let's keep in mind too.

So he lugs the hobbits off to Osgiliath, and Sam argues with him about letting them go. If you'll notice, at one point he actually seems on the verge of agreeing, but he changes his mind at the last minute.

Once in Osgiliath, the Nazgul attacks, and ladedaladeda... Faramir saves Frodo's life, ladedaladeda.... And then agrees to not only let the hobbits go on their way, but forfeit his own life to help them! Think about it - He's now willing to give up his very LIFE to let them go, because he knows it's right. If that's not redeeming, I don't know what is.


But I know I'm part of the like 0.000001 percent of the population who thinks that, so I've come to terms with it. :( ;)

And anywho, I saw the trailer! I have it downloaded! Wheeee! Wow, it's awesome! I can't wait!!

But I get where you're coming from, Martin. I mean, with me the movies and the books are totally seperate things. I don't really care what they do to the movies, as long as seeing the movie is enjoyable for me. That's probably what keeps me out of the rage that everyone else gets in about things like Elves at Helm's Deep, and Faramir dragging the hobbits out to Osgiliath. :rolleyes: :p

LadyBeelze
September 29th, 2003, 07:27 PM
:( I didn't have quicktime so i downloaded it and it still didn't say it was installed

Boar the Fighter
September 29th, 2003, 07:30 PM
You seem, Airema, to have missed the point. Maybe most of his lines were taken out of the book, but the character wasn't right out of the book. In the book, Faramir tells Frodo that he wouldn't take the Ring if it were lying by the side of the road...he knows of its evil power. You don't have to "explain the Faramir thing again," I get it. He takes the hobbits into custody in the book, but he doesn't take them anywhere. He lets them go immediately. He isn't tempted by the Ring. He's not the same. I loved the character in the book, I hated the character in the movie. End of story.

Martin the Warrior
September 30th, 2003, 12:36 PM
Airemia
I guess I'm going to have to explain the Faramir thing AGAIN!

I wouldn't have bothered. ;) By this point, I think everybody's opinion is rather cemented (although I hold out hope you'll see the light!).


But I get where you're coming from, Martin. I mean, with me the movies and the books are totally seperate things. I don't really care what they do to the movies, as long as seeing the movie is enjoyable for me. That's probably what keeps me out of the rage that everyone else gets in about things like Elves at Helm's Deep, and Faramir dragging the hobbits out to Osgiliath.

Oh, don't mistake me, I'm able to enjoy the movie (and I liked the Elves at Helm's Deep), it was just disappointing.

Let me see if I can offer an explanation. For decades now, some might say since movies were first made, those that had their origins as a book invaribly suffer and the audience walks away thinking, "The book was better."

Perhaps as an indirect result of this, Hollywood started moving away from the source material and filming a movie that has very little to do with the book it's based on-- on a (rather amusing) commentary track for The Sum of All Fears, Tom Clancy introduces himself with the line, "Hi, I'm Tom Clancy. I wrote the book they ignored."

For whatever reason, Hollywood doesn't quite believe in adhering to the written work. It's a two edged sword-- they can either make a movie that appeals to the masses, possibly alienating the fans of the book that made it a success in the first place, or they can cater to the fans and possibly make the movie a cult hit, but not the blockbuster it would have otherwise been.

But, then along comes Peter Jackson and Fellowship of the Ring. The respect shown to the original book-- the seriousness afforded to it-- their ability to adhere to the book 80% of the time (if not more) while still making minor changes-- was monumental. It showed, perhaps for the first time, that you can make a book adaptation faithful and appealing to the masses. That you didn't have to trade one for the other. What's more, it said to the longtime fans of LOTR, "Don't worry, this won't be another Bakshi. We're doing this right."

I had tremendous respect for Peter Jackson after FOTR and I had faith in him to deliver. I was looking forward to TTT just as much as the next guy and was still excited about it as I was sitting in the theatre, watching Gandalf battle the Balrog.

But, once TTT was over, I was left with a sense of disappointment. If FOTR adhered 80%, TTT did only 50%. That wasn't supposed to happen with Peter Jackson at the helm, so why did it?

This movie was not made equally for the fans and the masses, but disproportionately for the masses. Even the humor of the film changed, moving towards more "mainstream" fare. In FOTR it was circumstantial and character driven ("Where are we going?" "It comes in pints?" "What about elevensies?" "Don't turn me into anything unnatural!" etc.). In TTT, we had Gimli burping at Theoden, trying on chain mail too long for him, the "toss me" line, the "Shall I fetch you a box?"... now, that's not to say these lines weren't funny (because they were and I laughed), but it's a kind of humor that isn't exactly the class one expects or should expect from Lord of the Rings.

So, the fact that Jackson didn't live up to the faith I and other fans of the book put in him, the trust we gave him, was, well, disappointing. One could characterize it as a sense of betrayal if they so wished. It's not that the movie is bad, it's that it didn't live up to our expectations when the first one did. More or less.

Treerose
September 30th, 2003, 09:38 PM
Hear, hear, Martin.

Well, I just watched the trailer, and I have to grudgingly admit (see how TTT has soured me? <g>) that this looks like it'll be a bit better (i.e. more along the lines of the book) than TTT was (although trailers can be quite misleading). Except for the Arwen stuff, of course. I've kicked at that since day one and I'll continue to kick, but by now, I'm resigned enough to hold myself back from any lengthy venting on the subject. ;)

In any case, we'll see what Jackson did this time around in a few short months... Not that I'm particularly looking forward to it anymore. :P

Tree

~~~~

"One of the members of the Halle Orchestra was fined for parking his car outside Huddersfield Town Hall in his anxiety not to be late for rehearsal. He said to the magistrate: 'I prefer the wrath of the police rather than the wrath of Sir John Barbirolli.'"

~The Wit of Music~

I heard a true story of a musician in the NY Phil who got in a traffic jam before a concert. He'd just gotten a new car, but the jam wasn't going away, so he left his car where he was and began racing along with his horn, intent on getting to the concert by foot. Luckily, some other NY musicians saw him and picked him up, so he got there in time... but his car was gone when he got back. Still - better to lose a brand new car than be late to an NY Phil concert. :eek:

Glenner
September 30th, 2003, 10:24 PM
Took a peek at the trailer last night. The movie looks fantastic.
Its gonna be the best.

Rillflag27
October 1st, 2003, 02:29 PM
AWESOME!!!!!!!! It was really cool. I cant wait till it comes out.

TTT wasnt that bad. I liked it cause it had more action. FotR was exciting at first but it got kinda boring

Foremole
October 1st, 2003, 03:00 PM
I just downloaded it last night and its on my desktop, I thought it was pretty good, it sends chills down my spine everytime I watch it.

Keyla
October 1st, 2003, 03:46 PM
I'm quite blown away by it, though I must admit, as has already been said, it doesn't quite have the rhythm and build I noticed in the TTT trailer (I never saw it for FOTR). However, the images are quite breathtaking and really lift it off the page for me.
In regard to the Arwen bits I can't see anything that un-booklike. She's not riding into battle or even travelling to Gondor before it's all over (that's been confirmed by official sources). What appears to be there is her suggesting that Narsil be reforged (nothing to shocking here) and perhaps her becoming mortal, giving away her immortality, parting from her father, making her decision, etc. However, this is really hard to say with the few shots we see. It seems to me that they're just putting emphasis on her giving up her immortality, showing part of the significance of her choice, and showing the bitterness of her parting with her father.
I've now got to decide which image to use as my desktop wallpaper.

By the way, could someone post a link to the still by still analysis as my computer doesn't follow the link for some reason. (I had the same problem with the trailer itself, but followed the link at the top of this thread.)

Foremole
October 1st, 2003, 07:47 PM
If your running off of anything but a mac your computer might not like the link(being on apple.com).;)

The Red Badger
October 1st, 2003, 10:05 PM
Am I the only one bugged by the "How do we know Frodo is still alive?" "What does your heart tell you?" scene? It seems inappropriate, somehow. You'd figure Gandalf's faith in the hobbits would be unwavering and *Aragorn* might be the one who needs reassuring. Struck me as being terribly out of character. Oh, well. :p

Rillflag27
October 2nd, 2003, 09:06 AM
Ya, I noticed that too. but i dont know if I'm seeing things or something but after like 2 or 3 secs when Aragorn says "What does your heart tell you?" I could've thought I saw Gandalf smile. Like hes training them to trust them or something.

Keyla
October 2nd, 2003, 11:06 AM
It seems to me like this is Aragorn moving from being Gandalf pupil, as Reds said, reassuring the wizard rather than the other way around. It doesn't seem out of character for Gandalf in my opinion. He has a lot of worry on his shoulders and I think it shows the closeness of their friendship that they can talk like that about their fears. His heart does appear to fill him with hope from the way he smiles suggesting this is no real dispair.

Chelki Sureshot
October 23rd, 2003, 06:03 PM
I have a question. Right after the part where it shows Arwen walking, and then the next scene with Frodo and Sam, right after that there's this scene, and Merry or Pippen, is down on bended knees in front of a whole bunch of people and a guy who looks like he's about to execute him. :( Explain please.

The Red Badger
October 23rd, 2003, 06:24 PM
It's Merry. He's kneeling to Theoden and it's when he's made a squire of Rohan or something. (Charter? Martin? Care to chime in with the exact term?)

It's like being knighted. Not an execution.

Rillflag27
October 23rd, 2003, 08:16 PM
Yeah what Reds said. He has a helmet in his hand and if you see the previews on TV it shows something about Merry becoming a soldier. Its kinda like when a king knights a dude he puts the sword on both shoulders and says "I dub somebody or other a knight." well in this case a Rider of Rohan.