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View Full Version : Women's role in the "Redwall" series



rowanoak
October 1st, 2003, 04:19 PM
I just wanted to make a few quick comments about the latest editorial about the role of women in the "Redwall" series. First off seeing women in traditional roles does not bother me, and I am a girl. The "Redwall" women, in gereral, show great courage when they need to, and that is what I admire about them.
One question about the editorial, I thought that it was not confirmed one way or the other if Mariel and Dandin got married. Was the writer of the editorial mistaken?

Martin the Warrior
October 1st, 2003, 04:33 PM
Yes, he was. They just traveled together, although it's generally assumed they got married at some point before they died. But, that's all it is: an assumption.

I encourage you (and anyone else interested) to write a response to the editorial. That's what the section is there for-- to provoke thought and allow differing viewpoints on subjects to be heard.

I'm happy to see an interest in the section of late. I hope others will jump in, as well. :)

Senav
October 2nd, 2003, 05:34 PM
As I recall, the medievil view of women wasn't the greatest. Then again it depends on the culture. I'm reading The Mists of Avalon, it's kinda feminist but whaddya expect? It was generally believed that women were good for having and taking care of children, and not allowed to do much else. None of the women in Redwall are prevented from going outside the home. Women were not fit to sing, a Christian thing, and singing's something Redwall women do all the time.
Researching history is foon. I oughta do it more often.

Gonff
October 3rd, 2003, 03:16 PM
Women have a huge part in the Redwall Series. Look at Mariel, Cregga and Rose.

Most Abesses are also women, (with the exeption of Mordalfus), I think they were the best people chosen.

In Triss, Triss was the leader of the escape.

LadyBeelze
October 3rd, 2003, 05:41 PM
Most Abesses are also women, (with the exeption of Mordalfus), I think they were the best people chosen.

*coughcough* Aren't all Abesses women? lmao Abbots are men, aren't they?

I don't really have to say much on this that's already been said. One of the things i like in the redwall book series is that unlike most books, tv shows, real life even the girls have about the same amount of role as the guys. Lady cregga, triss, grath, mariel, etc, etc are some examples right off the top of my head. Go girls (and boys!)

LordTBT
October 5th, 2003, 01:04 AM
martin i swear it mentions a marriage. i dont have the book someone look it up.

Slagar the Cruel
October 5th, 2003, 01:19 PM
Actually, I don't recall any implications that Mariel and Dandin had any sort of romantic relationship whatsoever...

Airemia
October 5th, 2003, 07:08 PM
Slagar's right, there was nothing about Mariel and Dandin getting married, or having any romantic relationship what-so-ever. That's pure fandom.

LordTBT
October 6th, 2003, 04:55 PM
i disagree. i swear it mentions something of it at the end of Mariel. Why else would a male and a female of the same species with a nearness in age 'travel' together? because theyre friends? gimme a break. they got married, it was implied, end of story.

Edit:
additionally, were there other descendants of Gonff? If so they definitely got married, because they had children, before anyone says it yes children can be had out of wedlock, but I dont think BJ has had any Redwall couples do that. And why would Dandin want to end Gonff's line with himself? Kind of selfish.

Senav
October 6th, 2003, 06:37 PM
And why would Dandin want to end Gonff's line with himself? Kind of selfish.

That's not really "selfish"...You don't say to yourself one day "I must marry and continue my father's line!" Or maybe you do:eek: Having kids is a choice, not an obligation...
I didn't really see any evidence Mariel and Dandin are married, at least not in the traditional sense. Maybe they're common law? *shrugs* Maybe they're just really close friends (and yes, that is possible).

Y'know, I'm just letting her post because I myself have no idea whatsoever of what yer talking about...

LordTBT
October 6th, 2003, 07:19 PM
im still with marriage.

Martin the Warrior
October 6th, 2003, 08:43 PM
TBT
martin i swear it mentions a marriage.

It doesn't. Mariel and Dandin go off questing at the end of Mariel of Redwall (which we see in The Bellmaker) and then they sail across the sea to explore the unknown continent at the end of The Bellmaker. They aren't married.


Slagar
Actually, I don't recall any implications that Mariel and Dandin had any sort of romantic relationship whatsoever...

It was there, if you looked for it, and BJ halfway admitted it during an early Ask Brian, if I recall.


TBT
additionally, were there other descendants of Gonff?

There was Bryony, but her time preceded Dandin's by many generations and the two of them were described as being related to Gonff in the same way: great-great-grandchildren (possibly another great in there, but it's the same for both). There's nothing to suggest any descendants of Gonff lived past Dandin.

Slagar the Cruel
October 6th, 2003, 08:54 PM
It was there, if you looked for it, and BJ halfway admitted it during an early Ask Brian, if I recall.
You may think that, but I can't find anything that implies anything beyond a close friendship. It's completely open for interpreation. As for the Ask Brian question... well, not really...

56. Why didn't Mariel and Dandin get married in "The Bellmaker"? (Megan Sullivan, Chicago, Illinois)

They may have done, but maybe therein lies another tale.
That seemed to be more of a "you can't rule it out" sort of statement than anything even halfway concrete to me. While it admitted the possibility of a relationship, it didn't say that they ever had one in the books. But, like I said, it's a completely open issue.

LordTBT
October 6th, 2003, 09:23 PM
sounds to me like they did, but thats another story for the series.

Airemia
October 6th, 2003, 09:42 PM
A male and a female can travel together without being romantically involved. :p

LordTBT
October 7th, 2003, 09:33 AM
not with the attraction BJ created between them

Keyla
October 7th, 2003, 01:14 PM
I personaly can't think of any bit in either "Mariel of Redwall" or "The Bellmaker". The closeness of their friendship is very clear. In fact, it is one of the things that redeemed Mariel and Dandin in "The Bellmaker" for me, because otherwise they didn't strike me as being as well developed as they were in their first adventure.
I think Brian wanted it to create the kind of discussion, speculation and breadth of interpritation we see here. I think in the long run they would end up married, travelling together even when they are old. However, I think it would be difficult for Brian to portray romance when they are travelling together. He did it with Martin and Rose, but there it was very, very subtle, more beneath the surface, making the ending all the more poigniant. With Mariel and Dandin I think I'm glad it was so platonic.
Who says they weren't attracted to eachother? The point is they kept to simple friendship.
Well, I don't know if much of the above is that relevent.

Back to the editorial discussion, my point was never that there aren't strong females in Redwall or strong married females in Redwall; it's just they are no longer warriors. There are many examples of the traditional wife image: Cornflower; Columbine; Rimrose; Filorn; Rose and Brome's mother (i can't believe it; I forgot her name:eek: ). None of these females are shown as weak or dormat-like, but they aren't exactly great warriors. I'm personally undecided whether it would work if Brian explored this kind of territory or whether it would seem a bit forced.

LordTBT
October 7th, 2003, 07:26 PM
its as platonic as gonff and columbines relationship :D

Keyla
October 8th, 2003, 11:16 AM
Well, Gonff and Columbine actually got married in the books and much of their relating to eachother could be construed along the lines of flirting, romantic ballads and all that.

Mariel StormRider
February 14th, 2004, 02:44 AM
I'd rather think of Mariel and Dandin as close friends. It just seems to fit better with the way they intercted in the book, espessially since we can usually tell when he intends for a romance to happen even when two characters travel together (Matin+Rose) or even fight together (Tammo+Pasque), but none of this was seen with Mariel and Dandin. THe way they interacted with each other resembled how Martin and Gonff interacted with each other, or two other best friends.

Storm Swiftblade
February 4th, 2006, 10:18 PM
Mariel and Dandin go off questing at the end of Mariel of Redwall (which we see in The Bellmaker) and then they sail across the sea to explore the unknown continent at the end of The Bellmaker.
HA! I always knew Columbus wasn't the first to go to North America!

As for my opinion, I think Dandin and Mariel were just friends. It's possible they married later on in their lives, but they were probably just friends.

Josiah the Warrior
February 5th, 2006, 12:21 AM
Uhm, I hate doing this as much the next person, but I'm afraid I'll have to go with the standard *gives lengthy lecture on thread resurrection.*

:p Just remember to check dates.:cool:

Storm Swiftblade
February 5th, 2006, 12:40 AM
Wow. Sorry! I didnt even notice the date on the thread! Heh, and Im usualy the one who lectures other people about that. :rolleyes: *hides in a corner*

chupacabra
February 6th, 2006, 09:52 PM
Has anyone hear of courtl romance? i don't want to marry that horrible freebooter or any vermin that sloppers.

LordTBT
February 7th, 2006, 08:06 AM
As for my opinion, I think Dandin and Mariel were just friends.

It is impossible for men and women to be friends. That's another thread on it's own though.

I'll put it this way - what kind of man do you know goes traveling with a woman just because he's her friend?:rolleyes: ;)

Ferahgo the Assassin
February 7th, 2006, 08:49 AM
It is impossible for men and women to be friends. That's another thread on it's own though.

I'll put it this way - what kind of man do you know goes traveling with a woman just because he's her friend?
That's quite an assertion. :rolleyes: And I completely disagree, as would, I believe, most others.

In the specific case of Mariel and Dandin, however, I would be inclined to think that they were more than friends. Jacques seems to be fond of his male/female non-romantic pairs (Dannflor and Songbreeze, anyone?). There's nothing wrong with it in and of itself, but sometimes it seems so obvious and then we're let down at the end. I figure that both Mariel & Dandin and Dann & Song would make better couples than pairings that actually happen: Mattimeo and Tess, for instance.

Constance2
February 7th, 2006, 09:01 AM
How about Tiria and Leatho? They were both otters. Why don't you just say that they should have gotten married?

LordTBT
February 7th, 2006, 09:03 AM
And I completely disagree, as would, I believe, most others.

It's challenging to argue my point at this forum, there is a very important website I can't link.


How about Tiria and Leatho? They were both otters. Why don't you just say that they should have gotten married?

I think Leatho was much older than Tiria.

Ferahgo the Assassin
February 7th, 2006, 09:23 AM
It's challenging to argue my point at this forum, there is a very important website I can't link.
I'm mildly interested. PM me?

Ember Nickel
February 7th, 2006, 03:47 PM
It is impossible for men and women to be friends. That's another thread on it's own though.*clenches teeth* I'll stick to saying that you don't need the apostrophe in 'its'.

I think that they're just friends, but TBT should know that from the Wiki.

RockJaw_Grang
February 7th, 2006, 04:47 PM
How about Tiria and Leatho? They were both otters. Why don't you just say that they should have gotten married?

I too think that Leatho was older and..
Wasn't one a sea otter and one a river otter?
I guess their the same species but they are different..

Alice in Mossflower
August 23rd, 2007, 12:53 AM
As I recall, the medievil view of women wasn't the greatest. Then again it depends on the culture. I'm reading The Mists of Avalon, it's kinda feminist but whaddya expect? It was generally believed that women were good for having and taking care of children, and not allowed to do much else. None of the women in Redwall are prevented from going outside the home. Women were not fit to sing, a Christian thing, and singing's something Redwall women do all the time.
Researching history is foon. I oughta do it more often.

That's why in Medival times, the bigger-hipped your wife was, the better!

Anyway, I think that Brian Jacques wanted Redwall to be a little different.

"Mice are my heroes because, like children, mice are little and have to learn to be courageous and use their wits."

I think he was trying to appeal to all children: young boys and girls. He knew that, just as a little boy needs a hero with a sword and shield to look up to, a little girl needs a heroine other than a superficial Barbie doll whose proportions in real life would make it difficult for her to walk.

I know that if most of the little girls I know would model themselves after Cornflower or Constance or Laterose of Noonvale, they will probably be a lot better off later on in life...

But, hey, that's just my opinion.

<LongPatrolman89>
August 23rd, 2007, 02:08 AM
I think you exactly right, kind of like role models.(take out all the sword weilding, bow shooting and slinging pebbles at vermine's heads):rolleyes:

Brocktree1
August 23rd, 2007, 10:05 PM
Broken taboo...senses...tingling..... my god... LordTBT is still 'persistent' even five years ago!

chupacabra
August 24th, 2007, 09:55 PM
The female vermin also show leadership and skill and brains more than their counterparts.

Janglur Swifteye
August 25th, 2007, 12:54 AM
I think that Mariel and Dandin explored the west seas to gether as FRIENDS That were not romanticly involved with eachother. Also I would like to add somthing else. In High Rhulain does anyone know if Teria and Letho got together? I don't know why ,but I can picture them together.

<LongPatrolman89>
August 25th, 2007, 01:03 AM
Dandin and Mariel were in love.

Janglur Swifteye
August 25th, 2007, 01:07 AM
Ok what makes you think tha......wait. (has a wavey flashback of when they met) YOUR RIGHT!!!! now that I really think about it I really think its true!

<LongPatrolman89>
August 25th, 2007, 01:09 AM
Very Good YAY she remembers:D