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Is there even a place for Independents here?
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Thread: Is there even a place for Independents here?

  1. #1
    Patroller: Emeritus Cale Yin's Avatar
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    Exclamation Is there even a place for Independents here?

    I go away for 3 or 4 days and come back and there's a 3-page thread/tangled, involved discussion that I can't even follow because it's so clogged with extreme >>>(to my politically untrained mind) rightskies and leftskies. I myself am more leftski than rightski but is there a place for in-betweenskis?

    It just seems so suffocatingly pointless to discuss politics because everyone has their own point of view and NO ONE EVER GETS ANYWHERE. After years and years of elephant vs. donkey and no one has ever been proven right OR wrong, because both have their pros and cons, why can't we stoppit? THE WEEK magazine has it worded the best way I've seen: "...[Howard Stern]...mock[s] both the self-righteous political correctness of the left and the pious hypocrisy of the right.'" (Jody Rosen, The Los Angeles Times, quoted in The Week)(The fact that Howard Stern does it is meaningless in my post.)

    This next blurb is just a blurb that I liked and I don't really know what it means.

    "I have two words of advice for my friends on the right, said Joseph Epstein in The Wall Street Journal. Lighten up. Too many of us have sunk into dark mutterings about the barbarians at the gate. Look at what they've already done, say my gloomy compatriots; it's only a matter of time before these unenlightened hordes trample what's left of tradition and destroy the final vestiges of decency. That may well be true. Indeed, it has always been true. But without "the dear barbarians," conservatives would be out of a job. Pessimism is actually a more fitting attitude for our adversaries on the left, who resolutely expect the best of everything, and are always chagrined when their noble hopes are dashed. Conservatives, by contrast, harbor no such illusions. We know the world is a Hobbesian cesspool, "full of sin, silliness, and a rich surplus of stupidity." We also know that the world is a source of much "goodness and mirth," not the least of which flows from watching vexed liberals struggle to perfect the universe. So do not despair that the barbarians are at the gates. That only means we conservatives are doing our job. "The gates are a...good place for barbarians to be.""
    -Joseph Epstein, The Wall Street Journal

    To me it sorta seems like it contradicts itself but ummmmm I dunno.

    I predict TBT will say: "No matter what you can say or think, I'm right, you're wrong, and I will always be right. "

    Edit: By the way, does anyone know of or subscribe to The Week? It's the greatest magazine, with everything political, tabloidal, worldly, economical, art, books, music, films, houses on the (worldly) market, ...
    Basically everything that has happened in the world in the past week. Great mag.
    Last edited by Cale Yin; May 15th, 2004 at 11:21 PM.

    I am thinking it's a sign that the freckles
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  2. #2
    Patroller: General LordTBT's Avatar
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    I predict TBT will say: "No matter what you can say or think, I'm right, you're wrong, and I will always be right. "
    This, of course, is always true, but I wasnt going to say that. You said your mind was 'politically untrained'. Well train it! Pay attention to the news and whats going on. Learn about whats going on in your country, because it affects you.

    http://www.newsmax.com

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  3. #3
    Patroller: Emeritus Cale Yin's Avatar
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    And hey, I get to vote this year.

    I am learning, slowly. Especially with the help of this Week magazine, and all the pressure on "young people" to do what you're telling me to do, n stuff. But I don't fit exactly into Republicans or Democrats. They're both sorta right to me.

    I am thinking it's a sign that the freckles
    In our eyes are mirror images and when
    We kiss they're perfectly aligned
    And I have to speculate that God himself
    Did make us into corresponding shapes like
    Puzzle pieces from the clay...

    They will see us waving from such great
    Heights, 'come down now,' they'll say
    But everything looks perfect from far away,
    'Come down now...' but we'll stay...
    -Postal Service, Give Up

  4. #4
    Patroller: General LordTBT's Avatar
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    you've probably noticed I am a Republican, heh.

    No offense, but the majority of young women turn to the liberal, or evil bad side of the political spectrum.

    then once theyve learned that move is idiotic, they become conservative, heh. You should check out a book called 'Spin Sisters' on amazon.com It's about how the media influences women to become liberal.

    In case you were wondering, liberals are notorious for raising taxes. I for one hate paying taxes. I believe I know how to spend my money better than the government does. If you've ever received a pay check, you'll undoubtedly have noticed part of which says FICA. Thats money the government gets before you even see the check.

    You probably won't pay much attention to me, because of my strong view point, but give it some thought will ya
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  5. #5
    SCRIBE The Red Badger's Avatar
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    I myself am more leftski than rightski but is there a place for in-betweenskis?
    Sure, but they have to have persuasive arguments, same rules as everyone else.

    It just seems so suffocatingly pointless to discuss politics because everyone has their own point of view and NO ONE EVER GETS ANYWHERE.
    Ding ding, ding ding. Martin mentioned that during the last one as the reason he was staying out of it (and it's why he stayed out of this one). Me, I still enjoy them every so often and my participation hinges on my mood at the time. Last time I passed, this time I was game.

    After years and years of elephant vs. donkey and no one has ever been proven right OR wrong, because both have their pros and cons, why can't we stoppit?
    Because you're assuming it's ABOUT proving someone right or wrong. It's never been about that. Sure, some zealots (for all sides, right, left and middle) have adopted that mission, but that's not what it's about for most people. There are tasks set before us as a society and we've got more than one way of accomplishing those tasks. The point of politics is to *show* your way is *better*, that it will benefit us more.

    Say you've got a wagon full of supplies and a fork in the road. One way is a windy, paved road and the other is a straight, dirt road. Both roads will get you to the destination, neither one is wrong: which one is better? That's what politics is supposed to be.

    Me, I identify myself as a Conservative, but that doesn't mean I blindly accept a view as correct because it's the Conservative view. I think about it for myself and my views on the issues decides my political leaning, my political leaning doesn't decide my view on the issues. If I didn't believe in my positions, I wouldn't be able to argue for them as fiercely as I have.
    -reds

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    No offense, but the majority of young women turn to the liberal, or evil bad side of the political spectrum.
    Curse those evil women! First they tempted Adam with the apple and got Man kicked out of Eden. And history is just FILLED with examples of destroying people and nations with their devilish seductions. Filthy creatures. Only a bewitched, lower life form could bleed for seven days out of the month without dying.

    You know, I actually used to be quite Conservative when I was younger. Then when I got out in the real world and started thinking for myself instead of huddling under my parents' influence, I started to realise that humans are social animals, and sometimes we need help. Thus, I slid to the middle, though on some issues, I'm more left.

    And I did it all by myself. Gasp.

    Your biased views on women is the kind of garbage that gives Republicans a bad name in the first place.
    http://www.mechadrake.com

  7. #7
    Dibbun
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    Originally posted by Red Draco
    Curse those evil women! First they tempted Adam with the apple and got Man kicked out of Eden. And history is just FILLED with examples of destroying people and nations with their devilish seductions. Filthy creatures. Only a bewitched, lower life form could bleed for seven days out of the month without dying.

    You know, I actually used to be quite Conservative when I was younger. Then when I got out in the real world and started thinking for myself instead of huddling under my parents' influence, I started to realise that humans are social animals, and sometimes we need help. Thus, I slid to the middle, though on some issues, I'm more left.

    And I did it all by myself. Gasp.

    Your biased views on women is the kind of garbage that gives Republicans a bad name in the first place.
    Owch.

    Red-Dracowned!
    wHaT fOoLs Iz j00???///

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    Hmmm... the thing is I don't consider myself to be that much of a leftie and in some areas I wouldn't call myself a liberal. The thing is I tend to think some things are not how they should be or how God intended- I don't want to get into a religious debate here; just trying to paint out why I think like I do politically- but I tend to be less inclined to ban people from doing those kinds of things, perhaps because I live in a society that's quite multi-faith and multi-ethnic; it would be stupid to try and inforce the views of a minority onto a majority.

    The strangest thing is, though, some of the things I think that would appear most left come down to my religious perspective when liberals are stereotyped as being "God-less communists" and conservatives as "trying to preserve God's intentions". Take, for example, asylum seekers: in my opinion, the law given to the jews through Moses was pretty clear about the respect and love one should treat foreigners with and I believe the way we treat those fleeing from war, or even just povety, goes completely against that. Or taxing and public services: I feel Jesus and again jewish law was clear that as a society we should help the poor and those less well off and concepts such as the Jubilee convey a sense that each generation should be given as even a platform as possible economically, which is why I'm glad that in Britain everyone can get an education without directly paying fees.

    I rarely bring up my religious convictions in political debates because it perhaps sounds preachy and self-righteous and because it can either alienate people of other faiths or disturb other Christians who feel the Bible is being misinterpretted for political gain. Also political and religious debates are volatile enough in isolation, so mixing them is never a good idea, which is why I don't want to start a debate here over those issues, in addition to the fact that it's not the point of the thread.

    No offense, but the majority of young women turn to the liberal, or evil bad side of the political spectrum.
    While I don't by any means think it universal there is some truth in what you're saying, but not in the way that you see it. While I don't think that more left-orientated young people are predominantly female- typically, in my experience, it's half and half- those who are more zealously "right" tend to be male, although I think the profile of people who think along those lines is quite gender-balanced. I think guys of our kind of age tend to be more confrontational when it comes to the kind of policies and ideas that are considered "right-wing". This is more observation than proven fact.

  9. #9
    Patroller: General LordTBT's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Red Draco
    Curse those evil women! First they tempted Adam with the apple and got Man kicked out of Eden. And history is just FILLED with examples of destroying people and nations with their devilish seductions. Filthy creatures. Only a bewitched, lower life form could bleed for seven days out of the month without dying.

    You know, I actually used to be quite Conservative when I was younger. Then when I got out in the real world and started thinking for myself instead of huddling under my parents' influence, I started to realise that humans are social animals, and sometimes we need help. Thus, I slid to the middle, though on some issues, I'm more left.

    And I did it all by myself. Gasp.

    Your biased views on women is the kind of garbage that gives Republicans a bad name in the first place.
    I wasnt calling women evil Draco, and quite frankly, the majority of young women in the US are liberal. Look up the statistics, nothing biased about it.
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg...books&n=507846

    "Spin Sisters : How the Women of the Media Sell Unhappiness --- and Liberalism --- to the Women of America"

    Give it a look-see, as i suggested previously.

    Making false assumptions about me living under my parents is uncalled for. All of my decisions are made by one person, me
    And if you enjoy giving your money away to places like the government, wanna cut me a check too?
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    TBT, I think it might have been your referance to "the evil bad side of the political spectrum" brought connertations of the demonisation of the female sex. If you state that you view something as inferior and say that women are more likely to follow it than men, then it can be very easily taken as being against women. The idea that the title of the book suggests, that women are leading other women into the realms of unhappiness also has a wiff of what Red Draco was talking about.

  11. #11
    Patroller: General LordTBT's Avatar
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    Originally posted by Keyla
    TBT, I think it might have been your referance to "the evil bad side of the political spectrum" brought connertations of the demonisation of the female sex. If you state that you view something as inferior and say that women are more likely to follow it than men, then it can be very easily taken as being against women. The idea that the title of the book suggests, that women are leading other women into the realms of unhappiness also has a wiff of what Red Draco was talking about.
    Well let me clear it up here then so false assumptions cannot be made. I stated earlier I am a Republican(conservative). That means I disagree with Democrats(liberals). Which means I really despise that point of view(I don't hate an individual because s/he is a liberal, just their point of view. Most people I know are liberals, so when I meet a conservative(which is always a male for the record) it's like a personal rejoicing ceremony.)

    Additionally, I don't find women evil or demonic or satanic, that is ludicrous. I am not a sexist, I have nothing against women.
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    Patroller: Emeritus Furrtil's Avatar
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    Hmm. Interesting how Caleyin's semi "Call-for-peace-and-stop-arguing-politically-please-it's insane" plea has basically turned into another argument concerning politics.

    So Caleyin, just tell 'em at the polls whats on your mind, and pray you didn't get use those tickets with chads and all that nonsense.
    Always,
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  13. #13
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    Additionally, I don't find women evil or demonic or satanic, that is ludicrous. I am not a sexist, I have nothing against women.
    I'm sorry if it came across as if I were trying to infer that. I know you're not sexist; I was just trying to point out how it came across, yet managing in the process to use my language laxly so that I ended up coming across as wrongly as you did. It's strange how easily and innocently these kind of misunderstandings can spark off bad feelings.

  14. #14
    SCRIBE Mackinsie's Avatar
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    Lord TBT:
    Most people I know are liberals, so when I meet a conservative(which is always a male for the record) it's like a personal rejoicing ceremony.
    Not always! I am definately not a man and definately not a liberal!

    Caleyin:
    And hey, I get to vote this year.
    I am learning, slowly.
    It'll be fun You're doing the right thing, learning about each side. Most papers print a Voter Guide (closer to election time) that details all of the local candidates and their viewpoints. It can be really helpful to see their ideology spelled out in black and white. Just make sure there are no hanging chads on your ballot!

    Keyla:
    The idea that the title of the book suggests, that women are leading other women into the realms of unhappiness also has a wiff of what Red Draco was talking about.
    Perhaps, but TBT didn't write the book, nor did he call women evil. I am not offended by TBT's comments. He merely said that the majority of young women in the US are liberals. He didn't say all. It is a sad fact that most young women do not make political decisions themselves. There is a tendency to look at magazines and other forms of media and let them form your views. That is why I'm glad to see that Caleyin is learning and make up her own mind (whatever party/candidate it leads her to!).

    Red Draco:
    Your biased views on women is the kind of garbage that gives Republicans a bad name in the first place.
    First of all, TBT never said anything bad about women. Secondly, his views are not representative of the entire Republican party. If they were, then I guess everything you just posted would represent all liberals.
    Mackinsie
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    Patroller: General Baby Rollo's Avatar
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    This, of course, is always true, but I wasnt going to say that. You said your mind was 'politically untrained'. Well train it! Pay attention to the news and whats going on. Learn about whats going on in your country, because it affects you.
    And you should also learn about the news of other countries seeing as they affect us as well.

    No offense, but the majority of young women turn to the liberal, or evil bad side of the political spectrum.
    That's pretty funny seeing as our country was founded by liberals and the current Republican party was liberal and the Democratic Party was conservative when they both started out.



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