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Loss of Redwall lore?
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Thread: Loss of Redwall lore?

  1. #1
    President of The Long Patrol Martin the Warrior's Avatar
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    Question Loss of Redwall lore?

    Through the years, Brian has been slowly but surely ticking off one thing after the other-- stories fans often clamored (you could say demanded) for-- Martin's past in Martin the Warrior, the story of Sunflash in Outcast of Redwall, Luke's final voyage in The Legend of Luke, the story of the famous "first" Badger Lord in Lord Brocktree, and now the story of Redwall's predecessor in Loamhedge. Not only that, minor issues-- such as the placing of Martin's sword on the weathervane, the construction of Redwall Abbey, the Joseph Bell's origin, how Redwall began its tapestry, St. Ninian's founding, and so forth-- have also been explained.

    Is this a good thing? Does the telling of these tales damage Redwall, in a certain sense, by destroying its sense of history? By removing the unknown? Does assigning absolutes to these adventures that, previously, existed only in the minds of readers negatively affect the series in any way? Are we losing the lore of Redwall by having everything explained?

    Discuss.
    ~Martin the Warrior~
    -President of The Long Patrol

    "A poet is a musician who can't sing. Words have to find a man's mind before they can touch his heart, and some men's minds are woeful small targets. Music touches their hearts directly no matter how small or stubborn the mind of the man who listens."
    ~The Name of the Wind, Patrick Rothfuss

  2. #2
    Dibbun
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    I don't think so. It helps us understand things better and in some cases, allows us to enjoy the characters a bit more (Martin), or enjoy characters we wouldn't have known otherwise (Rose).

    Besides, some mysteries haven't been uncovered yet, there are still many gray characters we don't know the history about. Mask, Verdauga Greeneyes, and maybe Ramsca come to mind.

    ~Jade, who will have to think a little about this before continuing...
    I'm Jade the Warrior. I'm a small fieldmouse with a scorpion medallion, bi-colored eyes, and my trusty sword!

  3. #3
    Patroller Darkhood_343's Avatar
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    Nah, I don't think it ruins it, but it would be kewl to sit there and imagine some stuff, like badger lord stuff. I'm interested in Badgers mostly so I thought it was kewl that they included Brocktree. It would also be kewl to wonder and make up what you think it would be like.
    <br>Stay fancy!<br>
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  4. #4
    Patroller: General LadyBeelze's Avatar
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    Not really, when i'm reading how it happened i say "Oh so thats how it got there" or something like that. But in another sence leaving things unexplained makes the imagination wander thinking up own versions of how. Meh it doesn't matter either way
    ~ YdAl EzLeEb

  5. #5
    Patroller
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    Not really. I remember some mouse or another saying that there was a lot they didn't know about the abbey, and that's probably true.
    We know the histories of a lot of things, in more detail, yet they still seem mysterious...
    [ghostly]Whoooo[/ghostly]
    I say, is that a jellyfish?

  6. #6
    Charter Member Treerose's Avatar
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    Re: Loss of Redwall lore?

    Originally posted by Martin the Warrior
    Are we losing the lore of Redwall by having everything explained?
    Chalk up one more for the "no, we're not" opinion. Having all the backstories written up only further fleshes out the already 3D world of Redwall - it's so great that those like Brocktree and Luke aren't just names on a page anymore, but have real tales of their own. I'd take BJ's imagination of Redwall lore over my own any day, so I'd never think that he's destroying its sense of history by writing tales only hinted at previously. The more BJ yarns, the better, I say.

    Tree

    ~~~~

    "I remember being handed a score composed by Mozart at the age of eleven. What could I say? I felt like de Kooning, who was asked to comment on a certain abstract painting, and answered in the negative. He was then told it was the work of a celebrated monkey. 'That's different. For a monkey, it's terrific.'"

    ~Igor Stravinsky~

  7. #7
    Registered User Slagar the Cruel's Avatar
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    Not at all. As Tree said, it fleshes out the world of Redwall. Finally reading about the great legendary characters like Luke and Brocktree is very intriguing, and in any case I like reading (and writing, as a matter of fact) explanations of things of great importance to a story's world that had only been alluded to previously.

    One explanation that disappointed me was the description of the Painted Ones as rather ordinary tree-rats. In my opinion it completely stripped them of their mystery and menace. But that's not quite the type of revelation you're talking about, is it?

    Lord Brocktree's tale only disappointed me slightly by it's striking similarilty to later books. The other "pre-Redwall books" (Mossflower, the 2nd book of LoL, and MTW to an extent) really seemed like another historical period to me, for whatever reasons. (I could probably list some if I racked my brain hard enough.) It did portray a historical period before mice had become a major part of things (most of them were probably living in tribes up north at that point), which I found interesting.


    (As a side-note, I like your Igor Stravinsky quote, Tree. Neat guy, that Stravinsky. )

  8. #8
    President of The Long Patrol Martin the Warrior's Avatar
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    Okay, let's approach this from a different angle, then: Should everything be explained? Should anything be left vague and up to the reader?
    ~Martin the Warrior~
    -President of The Long Patrol

    "A poet is a musician who can't sing. Words have to find a man's mind before they can touch his heart, and some men's minds are woeful small targets. Music touches their hearts directly no matter how small or stubborn the mind of the man who listens."
    ~The Name of the Wind, Patrick Rothfuss

  9. #9
    Charter Member Treerose's Avatar
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    (As a side-note, I like your Igor Stravinsky quote, Tree. Neat guy, that Stravinsky. )
    <G> Very neat guy. When I get around to reading his autobiography one of these days, I'll have tons more good quotes to use, other than just the ones floating around on the web.

    Should everything be explained? Should anything be left vague and up to the reader?
    No, and no. Why should anything be left unstated? Like C Tolkien said somewhere (only thing of his I really like <g>), the Silmarillion was intended to give the readers who were only able to glimpse the far horizon of Tolkien's world in LotR a chance to explore it firsthand. Same thing here - why on earth would I be against an opportunity to travel the far reaches of BJ's world? If I see some pretty forests or hills or whatever, I'd like to go there, not hang back and say, "It's better to imagine what they're really like up close." I said it before... it'd be a sad day when I'd take my own imagination of what happens in Redwall over the master bard's.

    Tree

    ~~~~

    "One has a nose. The nose scents and it chooses. An artist is simply a kind of pig snouting truffles."

    ~Igor Stravinsky~

    Interesting... Berlioz said something about pigs and truffles, too:

    "When I see what certain people mean by love and what they look for in the creations of art, I am reminded involuntarily of pigs snuffling and rootling in the earth with their great coarse snouts at the foot of mighty oaks and among the loveliest flowers, in search of their favorite truffles."

  10. #10
    President of The Long Patrol Martin the Warrior's Avatar
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    Tree, I'm obligated to point out that answering "no" to both is a contradiction.

    "Should everything be explained?" becomes "No, everything shouldn't be explained."

    "Should anything be left vague and up to the reader?" becomes "No, nothing should be left vague and up to the reader, he should explain it."

    Let's further clarify, however-- should Brian ever write about Stonepaw and the previous Badger Lords? Lord Brocktree got away with no mention of Redwall because, in a certain sense, he was the first Badger Lord (to forge Salamandastron into a fighting army, of course), and his adventure took place in the same general "age" as Mossflower-- but, if he stretches back any farther, in a time when Redwall isn't even a stray thought in Germaine's head, when the age in which Redwall is built isn't even close-- has he gone to far? Can it even be called a "Redwall" book?

    Should he document the first time a Badger or a Hare ever came to Salamandastron? Show a time when it was a volcano?

    Should he explain how it is Martin is able to communicate to others? Say, an explanation akin to "the Force" becoming "midi-chlorians"?

    And keep in mind that no one is saying if Brian has a story to tell that he shouldn't write it. This is a fan discussion which means you get to be selfish and say exactly what you feel. If it were up to you, should he ever write about these things?

    I'm offering no opinion on these items, simply trying to foster a discussion.
    ~Martin the Warrior~
    -President of The Long Patrol

    "A poet is a musician who can't sing. Words have to find a man's mind before they can touch his heart, and some men's minds are woeful small targets. Music touches their hearts directly no matter how small or stubborn the mind of the man who listens."
    ~The Name of the Wind, Patrick Rothfuss

  11. #11
    Charter Member Treerose's Avatar
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    Tree, I'm obligated to point out that answering "no" to both is a contradiction.
    No, it isn't. Yes it is. Seriously, I know... I just misread it. <g>

    if he stretches back any farther, in a time when Redwall isn't even a stray thought in Germaine's head, when the age in which Redwall is built isn't even close-- has he gone to far? Can it even be called a "Redwall" book?
    Well, do the books of Redwall owe their charm solely to the Abbey itself, or is it the entire world BJ has crafted? For me, it's the latter. Everything BJ has in his books - the land of Mossflower, Southsward, the North, the shores of Salamandastron, the descriptions, the inhabitants, their customs, their food, their music: everything. That's Redwall to me.

    ::tries a non-music analogy:: It's like the Star Wars universe without the New Republic, or Lord of the Rings without hobbits. (Heh, for all most of the inhabitants of Middle-Earth knew, the world was without hobbits. <g>) Sure, they'd be missing a vital part of their histories, and there might not be too much else to relate, but it's still SW and LotR. Just with big chunks missing to us, because we're used to relating to those worlds through things like the New Rep and furry-footed halflings. Same thing with Redwall. I'm not saying Redwall's not important...that's how we've come to the books, after all. I just don't think that such a concept is going too far, or that his Redwall books are only Redwall books if they've got the abbey in it.

    Should he document the first time a Badger or a Hare ever came to Salamandastron? Show a time when it was a volcano?
    Both of those scenarios would be great, I think. I can see it now...

    "Salamandastron was young, the mountains green,
    No stain yet on the moon was seen,
    No words were laid on stream or stone,
    When [name first badger lord] woke and walked alone..."


    Should he explain how it is Martin is able to communicate to others? Say, an explanation akin to "the Force" becoming "midi-chlorians"?
    That would be very interesting, too, and I'm sure his explanation wouldn't be as much of a let down as the midi-chlorians of the Force were.

    Anyway...there's my humble little opinion. I'm curious to see what others think - maybe we could get a good discussion going.

    Tree

    ~~~~

    "(Prokofiev) played on a level with the keyboard, with an extraordinary sureness of wrist, a marvellous staccato. He rarely attacked from on high; he wasn't at all the sort of pianist who throws himself from the fifth floor to produce the sound. He had a nervous power like steel, so that on a level with the keys he was capable of producing sonority of fantastic strength and intensity, and in addition, the tempo never, never varied."

    ~Francis Poulenc~

    Great description. Wish a few more pianists would follow that. I see too many fifth-floorers. <G>

  12. #12
    Patroller MoonShadow's Avatar
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    Just to say, I loved every one of those books.
    Personally, I don't at all mind him writing about such things, as long as its a good yarn. Sure, not everything in Redwall can be answered, as we would have about... a thousand... maybe more... books published in order to satisfy "everything", but then, those new books will always bring more to wonder about.... I'm glad that Brian Jacques wrote Martin the Warrior. The series would be seriously have a great, empty hole in its history.... We need some books of those books, just to fill in the empty spaces our imaginations just can't fill in.

    As for Lord Brocktree not being a Redwall book, it still takes place in the Redwall universe, and that's good enough for me.
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  13. #13
    Charter Member Treerose's Avatar
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    Originally posted by MoonShadow
    Sure, not everything in Redwall can be answered, as we would have about... a thousand... maybe more... books published in order to satisfy "everything", but then, those new books will always bring more to wonder about....
    Good point, MoonShadow.

    Tree

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    "I was a disagreeable baby."

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  14. #14
    Patroller Cornflower's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    I don't think it damages the series. We should know the real stories behind Redwall and who else but BJ to tell them.

  15. #15
    Patroller Matthias of Redwall's Avatar
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    Well see here I don't think it destroys the sense of unknown in fact it clears up the mystery for instance about me search for the Sword up on the roof but not knowing how it get up there but there is a disadvantage... it acctually mess up the history a bit like one or two mistakes that is not mention in other book.

    EX: In Mossflower Timballisto did not die in the war but in Legend of Luke Martin said he died in the war with Tsarmina... (provided you read it carefully )
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